A Mad Mulligan
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Location: The Moonsine Cafe
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Location: The Moonsine Cafe
November 21st, 2007, 11:41 AM
Conservatives say crackdown targets grow-ops and other `serious drug crime' in neighbourhoods
Nov 21, 2007 04:30 AM
Tonda MacCharles
Ottawa Bureau
OTTAWA – The Conservative government has introduced automatic minimum jail terms of one to three years for serious drug crimes, as it targets grow-ops, organized crime and drug dealers or producers who exploit youths.
Justice Minister Rob Nicholson introduced a bill to amend the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act to bring in a range of mandatory minimum penalties that would be jacked up if there were aggravating factors – all in a bid to crack down on what he called a growing problem of "serious drug crime" that is "infiltrating" Canadian neighbourhoods.
Nicholson denied the Conservative government wants to limit judicial discretion or views judges as too lenient on drug offenders.
"Judges apply the laws that we have, but it's Parliament's job to set those guidelines, so we are living up to our responsibility to set those guidelines."
Among other things, the amendments provide:
A one-year mandatory sentence for dealing drugs like marijuana when there is a link to organized crime, or when a gun or the threat of violence is involved.
A two-year mandatory sentence for dealing hard drugs like cocaine, heroin and methamphetamines to youths, or dealing near a school or area frequented by kids.
A two-year mandatory sentence for running a grow-op of at least 500 marijuana plants.
A higher maximum penalty for cannabis production to 14 years from seven.
Tougher penalties for trafficking in so-called date-rape drugs like GHB or flunitrazepam.
The bill would allow some offenders who qualify for drug treatment courts to escape the automatic jail terms if they are able to successfully complete a program of treatment under judicial supervision.
But Paul Welsch, director of Rideauwood Addiction and Family Services, who applauded the emphasis on the use of the drug treatment courts, said in an interview afterward that many drug offenders might not qualify for the exemption. The specialty court program is directed specifically at offenders whose crimes are non-violent or administrative (failures to follow court orders) and whose behaviour is driven by addiction – often people with mental health problems or who are homeless.
Still, Welsch appeared with three Conservative ministers at the news conference to say the Conservative legislation "provides the right solution to the right problem."
Libby Davies, NDP spokesperson for drug reform policy, said the bill could be very costly because it will lead to higher prison populations.
"I think it's all about their political optics, trying to please their political base without ever examining what are effective policies that actually work in terms of dealing with substance use in our society."
Lawyer Frank Addario, head of the Criminal Lawyers' Association of Ontario, said research done by the justice department has shown that mandatory minimum penalties do not deter offenders more than "tailored proportionate sentences."
In fact, he said, "they result in lower conviction rates because judges are reluctant to convict somebody for a minor transgression of the law if they know the penalty is that harsh."
*************
As usual, there is little if any forethought put into these sweeping changes.
For example, high school kids deal drugs in high school, not some old dude, so under these laws, high school kids will end up in prison sentences of at least a year plus the criminal record to try and get a job with. Organized crime doesn't use leadership to tend grow ops. So the couple of people you are going to bust at the scene will be schmucks who are probably new to Canada, and can't really get something else going or people who are coned into minding the op while the real criminals are keeping an eye on them from a safe distance until harvest.
There is a reason we have discretionary sentencing Canada. It took a number of years of watching this very same type of reaction to crime causing more problems than it solves to have it sink in for some people. I don't see any benefit to return to draconian measures that in the end just don't work.
Conservatives say crackdown targets grow-ops and other `serious drug crime' in neighbourhoods
Nov 21, 2007 04:30 AM
Tonda MacCharles
Ottawa Bureau
OTTAWA – The Conservative government has introduced automatic minimum jail terms of one to three years for serious drug crimes, as it targets grow-ops, organized crime and drug dealers or producers who exploit youths.
Justice Minister Rob Nicholson introduced a bill to amend the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act to bring in a range of mandatory minimum penalties that would be jacked up if there were aggravating factors – all in a bid to crack down on what he called a growing problem of "serious drug crime" that is "infiltrating" Canadian neighbourhoods.
Nicholson denied the Conservative government wants to limit judicial discretion or views judges as too lenient on drug offenders.
"Judges apply the laws that we have, but it's Parliament's job to set those guidelines, so we are living up to our responsibility to set those guidelines."
Among other things, the amendments provide:
A one-year mandatory sentence for dealing drugs like marijuana when there is a link to organized crime, or when a gun or the threat of violence is involved.
A two-year mandatory sentence for dealing hard drugs like cocaine, heroin and methamphetamines to youths, or dealing near a school or area frequented by kids.
A two-year mandatory sentence for running a grow-op of at least 500 marijuana plants.
A higher maximum penalty for cannabis production to 14 years from seven.
Tougher penalties for trafficking in so-called date-rape drugs like GHB or flunitrazepam.
The bill would allow some offenders who qualify for drug treatment courts to escape the automatic jail terms if they are able to successfully complete a program of treatment under judicial supervision.
But Paul Welsch, director of Rideauwood Addiction and Family Services, who applauded the emphasis on the use of the drug treatment courts, said in an interview afterward that many drug offenders might not qualify for the exemption. The specialty court program is directed specifically at offenders whose crimes are non-violent or administrative (failures to follow court orders) and whose behaviour is driven by addiction – often people with mental health problems or who are homeless.
Still, Welsch appeared with three Conservative ministers at the news conference to say the Conservative legislation "provides the right solution to the right problem."
Libby Davies, NDP spokesperson for drug reform policy, said the bill could be very costly because it will lead to higher prison populations.
"I think it's all about their political optics, trying to please their political base without ever examining what are effective policies that actually work in terms of dealing with substance use in our society."
Lawyer Frank Addario, head of the Criminal Lawyers' Association of Ontario, said research done by the justice department has shown that mandatory minimum penalties do not deter offenders more than "tailored proportionate sentences."
In fact, he said, "they result in lower conviction rates because judges are reluctant to convict somebody for a minor transgression of the law if they know the penalty is that harsh."
*************
As usual, there is little if any forethought put into these sweeping changes.
For example, high school kids deal drugs in high school, not some old dude, so under these laws, high school kids will end up in prison sentences of at least a year plus the criminal record to try and get a job with. Organized crime doesn't use leadership to tend grow ops. So the couple of people you are going to bust at the scene will be schmucks who are probably new to Canada, and can't really get something else going or people who are coned into minding the op while the real criminals are keeping an eye on them from a safe distance until harvest.
There is a reason we have discretionary sentencing Canada. It took a number of years of watching this very same type of reaction to crime causing more problems than it solves to have it sink in for some people. I don't see any benefit to return to draconian measures that in the end just don't work.
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
November 21st, 2007, 11:55 AM
If the Conservatives were serious on getting tough on crime, they would increase the maximum sentences thereby actually targetting the serious offenders. As is, an increase in minimum sentences only increases the amount of time that the least serious offenders will spend in prison, also known as crime school. It is unfortunate that "getting tough on crime" to our current conservative party merely means enacting harsher retribution on the small fries, and doesn't mean lowering the crime rate.
If the Conservatives were serious on getting tough on crime, they would increase the maximum sentences thereby actually targetting the serious offenders. As is, an increase in minimum sentences only increases the amount of time that the least serious offenders will spend in prison, also known as crime school. It is unfortunate that "getting tough on crime" to our current conservative party merely means enacting harsher retribution on the small fries, and doesn't mean lowering the crime rate.
Hawkings former plumber
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November 21st, 2007, 11:58 AM
I would feel more comfortable with the proposed legislation if I knew I'd be sharing a cell with somebody from Searle or Johnson & Johnson. If it were to be applied evenly on a level playing field I could support it.
I would feel more comfortable with the proposed legislation if I knew I'd be sharing a cell with somebody from Searle or Johnson & Johnson. If it were to be applied evenly on a level playing field I could support it.
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 4,824
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
November 21st, 2007, 01:05 PM
How about doing something about a fixable reason some people are driven to crime? For some, theft or dealing dope is a means to survival. Too often, the work just isn't there that very moment you need the paycheque most - if you can even get a job. Disabled don't get enough to survive as it is. With increased costs of living (and insulting raises that don't even try to keep up with inflation) the most vulnerable go farther behind every year - unless you have something to sell. Welfare? I don't care how you paint it, nobody can survive on that. No - you're not meant to, but perfect circumstances aren't usually available to those desperate enough to have to resort to it.
Sometimes - three hots and a cot are a lot better than the options....
Woof!
How about doing something about a fixable reason some people are driven to crime? For some, theft or dealing dope is a means to survival. Too often, the work just isn't there that very moment you need the paycheque most - if you can even get a job. Disabled don't get enough to survive as it is. With increased costs of living (and insulting raises that don't even try to keep up with inflation) the most vulnerable go farther behind every year - unless you have something to sell. Welfare? I don't care how you paint it, nobody can survive on that. No - you're not meant to, but perfect circumstances aren't usually available to those desperate enough to have to resort to it.
Sometimes - three hots and a cot are a lot better than the options....
Woof!
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,981
Location: USA
Location: USA
November 21st, 2007, 01:20 PM
I think drug use is not just a conservative issue and it affects all people. Whether you are liberal or conservative, if you know someone who has a drug problem you will know how hard it is.
I also think that the idea that drug dealers do it just to survive is a stretch. Selling drugs is easy money and fast money. It is also very lucrative and is much easier than finding a job and working a full week. That is until you get caught or killed.
JMO
I think drug use is not just a conservative issue and it affects all people. Whether you are liberal or conservative, if you know someone who has a drug problem you will know how hard it is.
I also think that the idea that drug dealers do it just to survive is a stretch. Selling drugs is easy money and fast money. It is also very lucrative and is much easier than finding a job and working a full week. That is until you get caught or killed.
JMO
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 8,795
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Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
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November 21st, 2007, 01:22 PM
Booze and nicotine are legal and a large percentage of the western worlds lives are ruined by legal drugs. Untill that changes nobody has to get serious about drugs.
Booze and nicotine are legal and a large percentage of the western worlds lives are ruined by legal drugs. Untill that changes nobody has to get serious about drugs.
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 8,795
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Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
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November 21st, 2007, 01:24 PM
Quoting EagleSmack
How much for an ounce of good pot in your nieghbourhood Smack?
I think drug use is not just a conservative issue and it affects all people. Whether you are liberal or conservative, if you know someone who has a drug problem you will know how hard it is.
I also think that the idea that drug dealers do it just to survive is a stretch. Selling drugs is easy money and fast money. It is also very lucrative and is much easier than finding a job and working a full week. That is until you get caught or killed.
JMO
I also think that the idea that drug dealers do it just to survive is a stretch. Selling drugs is easy money and fast money. It is also very lucrative and is much easier than finding a job and working a full week. That is until you get caught or killed.
JMO
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,981
Location: USA
Location: USA
November 21st, 2007, 01:29 PM
Leave it to Beaver to use a serious issue and what could be a worthwhile thread/discussion and bring it down to sewer level.
Quoting darkbeaver
I have no idea. I don't smoke the stuff.
How much for an ounce of good pot in your nieghbourhood Smack?
Leave it to Beaver to use a serious issue and what could be a worthwhile thread/discussion and bring it down to sewer level.
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 8,795
Videos: 1
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
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Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
November 21st, 2007, 01:37 PM
Quoting EagleSmack
So you don't actually know anything about this serious problem do you?
I have no idea. I don't smoke the stuff.
Leave it to Beaver to use a serious issue and what could be a worthwhile thread/discussion and bring it down to sewer level.
Leave it to Beaver to use a serious issue and what could be a worthwhile thread/discussion and bring it down to sewer level.
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 4,824
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
November 21st, 2007, 01:41 PM
It would be an outright lie to imply ALL drug dealers do it to survive. The fast cash part is true enough - so is the risk. Real criminals do it because it's easy and they're greedy enough to take advantage of someone else's illness.
Finding a job and working a full week isn't always possible if you're a cod fisherman, or work in an Ontario bush, or build houses in the USA, or are disabled, or are undereducated, or untrained, or have a criminal record. Take away the desperation and you'll remove those folks from the equation.
Woof!
Quoting EagleSmack
For some, theft or dealing dope is a means to survival.
I think drug use is not just a conservative issue and it affects all people. Whether you are liberal or conservative, if you know someone who has a drug problem you will know how hard it is.
I also think that the idea that drug dealers do it just to survive is a stretch. Selling drugs is easy money and fast money. It is also very lucrative and is much easier than finding a job and working a full week. That is until you get caught or killed.
JMO
I also think that the idea that drug dealers do it just to survive is a stretch. Selling drugs is easy money and fast money. It is also very lucrative and is much easier than finding a job and working a full week. That is until you get caught or killed.
JMO
It would be an outright lie to imply ALL drug dealers do it to survive. The fast cash part is true enough - so is the risk. Real criminals do it because it's easy and they're greedy enough to take advantage of someone else's illness.
Finding a job and working a full week isn't always possible if you're a cod fisherman, or work in an Ontario bush, or build houses in the USA, or are disabled, or are undereducated, or untrained, or have a criminal record. Take away the desperation and you'll remove those folks from the equation.
Woof!
November 21st, 2007, 01:46 PM
Of all the drug dealers I know and have known, nearly all of them did it on the side. They worked regular jobs, mechanics, cooks, fisherman. And for the most part, they were simply making a bit of extra money on top of their own habits. Buy a bag from a bigger dealer, and buy some extra to sell to your friends.
Of all the drug dealers I know and have known, nearly all of them did it on the side. They worked regular jobs, mechanics, cooks, fisherman. And for the most part, they were simply making a bit of extra money on top of their own habits. Buy a bag from a bigger dealer, and buy some extra to sell to your friends.
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 4,824
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
November 21st, 2007, 02:03 PM
Woof!
Quoting Tonington
In the "grand scheme of things" we probably know the same guys - the guys who resell most of the ounce or QP they get so their tokes come cheap - or free. Really, unless there's a complaint or they've piddled in some cop's corn flakes, the law doesn't even pay attention to them.
Of all the drug dealers I know and have known, nearly all of them did it on the side. They worked regular jobs, mechanics, cooks, fisherman. And for the most part, they were simply making a bit of extra money on top of their own habits. Buy a bag from a bigger dealer, and buy some extra to sell to your friends.
Woof!
Time Out
Posts: 415 
Videos: 3
Videos: 3
November 21st, 2007, 02:10 PM
Quoting darkbeaver
Ignorance is a bigger problem than drugs. We're stuck with "society doctors" that spend very little time in the real world. So we get lots of bandages for our elbows when it is our knees that need attention. And our knees get pretty sore when we're forced to be on them all of the time. Just a thought.
So you don't actually know anything about this serious problem do you?
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,981
Location: USA
Location: USA
November 21st, 2007, 03:06 PM
I watched a childhood friend of mine go from a normal kid to a drug addicted waste when he decided at 15 that we just weren't cool enough. I guess playing sports and staying clean was less attractive than smoking dope and being cool. The last I heard of him he was downtown panhandling and homeless.
Quoting darkbeaver
Because I don't buy the stuff does not mean I don't know how devastating it is. My bro-in-law battled drug addiction for years and it cost our family quite a bit of heartache. Then it cost us quite a bit of money to pay his debts when he finally got cleaned.
So you don't actually know anything about this serious problem do you?
I watched a childhood friend of mine go from a normal kid to a drug addicted waste when he decided at 15 that we just weren't cool enough. I guess playing sports and staying clean was less attractive than smoking dope and being cool. The last I heard of him he was downtown panhandling and homeless.
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,981
Location: USA
Location: USA
November 21st, 2007, 03:09 PM
Quoting lone wolf
Agreed. But because things are tough does not justify selling drugs. Even welfare can catch someone who has fallen through the cracks. Generations have been on welfare without taking up selling drugs.
For some, theft or dealing dope is a means to survival.
It would be an outright lie to imply ALL drug dealers do it to survive. The fast cash part is true enough - so is the risk. Real criminals do it because it's easy and they're greedy enough to take advantage of someone else's illness.
Finding a job and working a full week isn't always possible if you're a cod fisherman, or work in an Ontario bush, or build houses in the USA, or are disabled, or are undereducated, or untrained, or have a criminal record. Take away the desperation and you'll remove those folks from the equation.
Woof!
It would be an outright lie to imply ALL drug dealers do it to survive. The fast cash part is true enough - so is the risk. Real criminals do it because it's easy and they're greedy enough to take advantage of someone else's illness.
Finding a job and working a full week isn't always possible if you're a cod fisherman, or work in an Ontario bush, or build houses in the USA, or are disabled, or are undereducated, or untrained, or have a criminal record. Take away the desperation and you'll remove those folks from the equation.
Woof!
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 4,824
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
November 21st, 2007, 03:38 PM
Generations have been on welfare and have had jobs on the side, or sold stolen property, or their bodies, or collected kids so they'd have the meal ticket. It's not enough to survive on let alone thrive on and it gets tougher all the time.
Woof!
Quoting EagleSmack
Logically, when you have a certain amount of security, there is no justification for doing anything in desperation. You have to be there to really know what you'll do to survive. Speaking as someone who has fallen through some mighty large cracks in a system filled with them, welfare is by no means a catcher's mitt. It just slows down the inevitable. That I didn't resort to desperate measures is more a measure of my friends than it is of the strength of my character.
Agreed. But because things are tough does not justify selling drugs. Even welfare can catch someone who has fallen through the cracks. Generations have been on welfare without taking up selling drugs.
Generations have been on welfare and have had jobs on the side, or sold stolen property, or their bodies, or collected kids so they'd have the meal ticket. It's not enough to survive on let alone thrive on and it gets tougher all the time.
Woof!
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 8,795
Videos: 1
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
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November 21st, 2007, 03:54 PM
I'm 54 and I've watched the war on drugs fail for thirty-five years every month there's a new plan and nothing gets done, In my opinion nothing ever will be done, there are to many vested interests, the taps not in the hands of people serious about the problems. We can take Afghanistan as a good example, every faction in the region uses opium revenue to conduct war, most of the Afghan parliament is involved in the trade, they're our paid allies, so I think we'll hear this plan and that plan but nothing will change.
There is no legal demand not already addressed by the lisenced providers. The adicts are a vital indespensable part of our war effort in the region, so in my opinion use will increase. We can talk about my plumbing problem after you've stuffed yourself with turkey, I hope it's organic and not laced with drugs man.
Quoting EagleSmack
Thankyou Smack, I feel for your friends and relatives and your family and the pain they've gone through and certainly there are many more rewarding pastimes than drug abuse. But if guns don't kill people than niether do drugs or cars, right. I'v had friends and family destroy themselves with booze.
Because I don't buy the stuff does not mean I don't know how devastating it is. My bro-in-law battled drug addiction for years and it cost our family quite a bit of heartache. Then it cost us quite a bit of money to pay his debts when he finally got cleaned.
I watched a childhood friend of mine go from a normal kid to a drug addicted waste when he decided at 15 that we just weren't cool enough. I guess playing sports and staying clean was less attractive than smoking dope and being cool. The last I heard of him he was downtown panhandling and homeless.
I watched a childhood friend of mine go from a normal kid to a drug addicted waste when he decided at 15 that we just weren't cool enough. I guess playing sports and staying clean was less attractive than smoking dope and being cool. The last I heard of him he was downtown panhandling and homeless.
I'm 54 and I've watched the war on drugs fail for thirty-five years every month there's a new plan and nothing gets done, In my opinion nothing ever will be done, there are to many vested interests, the taps not in the hands of people serious about the problems. We can take Afghanistan as a good example, every faction in the region uses opium revenue to conduct war, most of the Afghan parliament is involved in the trade, they're our paid allies, so I think we'll hear this plan and that plan but nothing will change.
There is no legal demand not already addressed by the lisenced providers. The adicts are a vital indespensable part of our war effort in the region, so in my opinion use will increase. We can talk about my plumbing problem after you've stuffed yourself with turkey, I hope it's organic and not laced with drugs man.
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,844
November 21st, 2007, 07:53 PM
The only problem I have with the drug laws, is the need to go to a doctor and get stoned.
If you decide you are depressed and wanna take some uppers, you can't.
You go to a doctor, and SAY your depressed (yes I test this at a college clinic) and they gave me a free sample of powerful anti-depresants (Which had I been willing to risk it I could have sold for some serious cash).
Have a stance saying mind altering drugs are good or they are bad, which ever, it doesn't impact me, but in the sense of fairness make it universal.
The only problem I have with the drug laws, is the need to go to a doctor and get stoned.
If you decide you are depressed and wanna take some uppers, you can't.
You go to a doctor, and SAY your depressed (yes I test this at a college clinic) and they gave me a free sample of powerful anti-depresants (Which had I been willing to risk it I could have sold for some serious cash).
Have a stance saying mind altering drugs are good or they are bad, which ever, it doesn't impact me, but in the sense of fairness make it universal.
