October 25th, 2007, 05:41 PM
Fanning anti-immigrant flames
By LORRIE GOLDSTEIN, TORONTO SUN
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It's ignorant, not a surprise coming from the Quebecois, but I actually love it...I think we should adopt a simular policy throughout Canada.
Fanning anti-immigrant flames
By LORRIE GOLDSTEIN, TORONTO SUN
Quote:
Parti Quebecois Leader Pauline Marois says she's having trouble learning English so I have an idea.
Three years from now, let's give her a language test to see if she's achieved an "appropriate" knowledge of English. We'll decide what's "appropriate." If, by then, her proficiency in English doesn't satisfy us, let's deny her some rights.
Let's prevent her from holding any public office. Or raising money for a political party. Or petitioning Parliament to redress a grievance.
Let's call the law permitting this the "Canadian Identity Act." Far-fetched? Nope. Marois has proposed similar legislation for Quebec, called the "Quebec Identity Act." It would require all new immigrants to Quebec -- 40% now arrive unable to speak French -- to have an "appropriate" knowledge of the language within three years or forfeit the above rights.
While Quebec would pay for the instruction and the law wouldn't apply to citizens or immigrants already in Quebec before the act's passage, it raises alarming questions.
Who decides when someone's French is "appropriate"? How?
Would it be government bureaucrats, beholden to a PQ majority government?
Apparently so, because that's the only way this law will pass.
The PQ is the third party in Quebec's National Assembly, behind Premier Jean Charest's Liberals, who head a minority government. The official opposition is led by Mario Dumont and his Action democratique du Quebec party.
Both reject Marois' proposal. Charest says it would create two classes of citizens in Quebec. Dumont calls it a trial balloon unlikely to survive a constitutional challenge.
But for Marois, passing the law isn't necessary. Simply by introducing it, the PQ are positioning themselves as the defenders of French language and culture in Quebec, traditional separatist turf usurped by Dumont and the ADQ in the last election.
Marois' proposal is part of the ongoing debate about the "reasonable accommodation" of minorities in Quebec. It's now frequently veering into immigrant-bashing, particularly of Muslims, as indicated by the testimony at public hearings now being held by the Quebec government into the "reasonable accommodation" issue.
While the Liberals and ADQ have criticized Marois' proposal, they've also been playing to fears about immigrants. Recent polls in Quebec show growing concerns about immigrants failing to integrate. There are also complaints the government has been too accommodating to minorities, a central plank of Dumont's campaign in the last election, which boosted the ADQ into second place over the PQ.
None of this speaks well of Quebec's politicians, who should be working to calm the hysterical tone of some of the anti-immigrant rhetoric, not pander to it.
That's what great leaders do -- they bring people together. They don't drive them apart.
Then again, in Ontario, another province where politicians like to think of themselves as "progressive" and "enlightened," Liberal Premier Dalton McGuinty just won re-election largely by pandering to Islamophobia and other forms of bigotry during the debate over whether to publicly fund faith-based schools if they teach the Ontario-approved educational curriculum, proposed by Conservative Leader John Tory.
Apparently some of our poll-happy politicians have decided the way to win power these days is not to calm public fears about "the other" but to stoke them. Shame on them, and what a terrible irony, since many are the same people who used to lecture us about the joys of multiculturalism.
The Toronto SunParti Quebecois Leader Pauline Marois says she's having trouble learning English so I have an idea.
Three years from now, let's give her a language test to see if she's achieved an "appropriate" knowledge of English. We'll decide what's "appropriate." If, by then, her proficiency in English doesn't satisfy us, let's deny her some rights.
Let's prevent her from holding any public office. Or raising money for a political party. Or petitioning Parliament to redress a grievance.
Let's call the law permitting this the "Canadian Identity Act." Far-fetched? Nope. Marois has proposed similar legislation for Quebec, called the "Quebec Identity Act." It would require all new immigrants to Quebec -- 40% now arrive unable to speak French -- to have an "appropriate" knowledge of the language within three years or forfeit the above rights.
While Quebec would pay for the instruction and the law wouldn't apply to citizens or immigrants already in Quebec before the act's passage, it raises alarming questions.
Who decides when someone's French is "appropriate"? How?
Would it be government bureaucrats, beholden to a PQ majority government?
Apparently so, because that's the only way this law will pass.
The PQ is the third party in Quebec's National Assembly, behind Premier Jean Charest's Liberals, who head a minority government. The official opposition is led by Mario Dumont and his Action democratique du Quebec party.
Both reject Marois' proposal. Charest says it would create two classes of citizens in Quebec. Dumont calls it a trial balloon unlikely to survive a constitutional challenge.
But for Marois, passing the law isn't necessary. Simply by introducing it, the PQ are positioning themselves as the defenders of French language and culture in Quebec, traditional separatist turf usurped by Dumont and the ADQ in the last election.
Marois' proposal is part of the ongoing debate about the "reasonable accommodation" of minorities in Quebec. It's now frequently veering into immigrant-bashing, particularly of Muslims, as indicated by the testimony at public hearings now being held by the Quebec government into the "reasonable accommodation" issue.
While the Liberals and ADQ have criticized Marois' proposal, they've also been playing to fears about immigrants. Recent polls in Quebec show growing concerns about immigrants failing to integrate. There are also complaints the government has been too accommodating to minorities, a central plank of Dumont's campaign in the last election, which boosted the ADQ into second place over the PQ.
None of this speaks well of Quebec's politicians, who should be working to calm the hysterical tone of some of the anti-immigrant rhetoric, not pander to it.
That's what great leaders do -- they bring people together. They don't drive them apart.
Then again, in Ontario, another province where politicians like to think of themselves as "progressive" and "enlightened," Liberal Premier Dalton McGuinty just won re-election largely by pandering to Islamophobia and other forms of bigotry during the debate over whether to publicly fund faith-based schools if they teach the Ontario-approved educational curriculum, proposed by Conservative Leader John Tory.
Apparently some of our poll-happy politicians have decided the way to win power these days is not to calm public fears about "the other" but to stoke them. Shame on them, and what a terrible irony, since many are the same people who used to lecture us about the joys of multiculturalism.
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It's ignorant, not a surprise coming from the Quebecois, but I actually love it...I think we should adopt a simular policy throughout Canada.
October 25th, 2007, 05:56 PM
There definitely should be some standard. We have two languages officially. Many more than that in practice. They should be able to communicate at least in one of our official languages. I have no problem with that. Surgeons from non-English/French countries already have to complete an ESL or French equivalent competency exams. It should be no different for other immigrants.
There definitely should be some standard. We have two languages officially. Many more than that in practice. They should be able to communicate at least in one of our official languages. I have no problem with that. Surgeons from non-English/French countries already have to complete an ESL or French equivalent competency exams. It should be no different for other immigrants.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,897 
Location: Quebec
Location: Quebec
October 25th, 2007, 06:34 PM
Theres some conflict with the constitution or the charter of rights ( can't get them straight) but yeah , you would have to know the language to understand the issues to be able to vote. So i guess monkeys will soon be able to vote if they don't need to speak french or english.
Theres some conflict with the constitution or the charter of rights ( can't get them straight) but yeah , you would have to know the language to understand the issues to be able to vote. So i guess monkeys will soon be able to vote if they don't need to speak french or english.
Newbie
Posts: 5
November 10th, 2007, 10:52 PM
I always lived there and I can't stand it anymore, I'm going to move in Ontario at this rate.
Quote:
People in Quebec should really grow up, I'm so sick of them and their french stuff.
More than anything this legislation is dictatorial. Someone mentioned we have two official languages in this country? Ask Quebec about that because in Quebec there is ONE official language, and that is backed up by Bill 101.
I always lived there and I can't stand it anymore, I'm going to move in Ontario at this rate.
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,769 
November 11th, 2007, 12:07 AM
From a philosophical standpoint about immigration:
If they don't want to adopt our customs and languages lock stock and barrel, why do they want to emigrate into Canada from their homeland?
The answer of course is money. And if money is the only reason you are coming, then why should an existing population pay for change?
If money is the issue, then decide if the money is worth it.
But doesn't it sound a bit odd for someone to say "I Want to be a Canadian, but I don't want to speak English or French, Hold to your customs, I don't want to use your legal system nor use your school system for my children"
What they are really saying is "I want to get a higher income and standard of living in your country, now get rid of the parts that made it rich and pander to me"
That being said, in many cases we only allow high immigration for our own monetary gain and in those cases we should pander to their "reasonable accomidation" I mean, if we are asking them to invest their time and effort into us, we can give them some of what they want.
But if Quebec is fine with giving up the wealth immigration generates, it should be fine to not compromise its rules. Let the market decide.
From a philosophical standpoint about immigration:
If they don't want to adopt our customs and languages lock stock and barrel, why do they want to emigrate into Canada from their homeland?
The answer of course is money. And if money is the only reason you are coming, then why should an existing population pay for change?
If money is the issue, then decide if the money is worth it.
But doesn't it sound a bit odd for someone to say "I Want to be a Canadian, but I don't want to speak English or French, Hold to your customs, I don't want to use your legal system nor use your school system for my children"
What they are really saying is "I want to get a higher income and standard of living in your country, now get rid of the parts that made it rich and pander to me"
That being said, in many cases we only allow high immigration for our own monetary gain and in those cases we should pander to their "reasonable accomidation" I mean, if we are asking them to invest their time and effort into us, we can give them some of what they want.
But if Quebec is fine with giving up the wealth immigration generates, it should be fine to not compromise its rules. Let the market decide.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,897
Location: Quebec
Location: Quebec
November 11th, 2007, 05:10 AM
Noticed the irony when i quote in french ....he he he
Quoting Sliverwarrior
Tell me , are you an Anglo per chance? The stupidest thing the anglos did when the PQ came into power and the treat of seperation was real , plus the passing of bill 101 was to leave 'en masse' to Ontario.....Yeah buddy , fight the good fight, leave your fellow Anglos behind, reduced in numbers.....Real smart. Most of you say the French were chicken during the wars. Some of them had strong convictions . But you are no better then them. You will weaken the anglos position in Quebec.
People in Quebec should really grow up, I'm so sick of them and their french stuff.
I always lived there and I can't stand it anymore, I'm going to move in Ontario at this rate.
I always lived there and I can't stand it anymore, I'm going to move in Ontario at this rate.
Noticed the irony when i quote in french ....he he he
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,897
Location: Quebec
Location: Quebec
November 11th, 2007, 05:42 AM
Now thier having problems down there too ..In boston of all places the have to post in spanish thats how much the population demographics has changed. Pretty soon french is not going to be taken over by english but by spanish..
Social evolution i guess
Quoting Locutus
Way back we moved to the states while i was a kid. Tho we were in a french area and half the population of that city was french descendants, everyone learnt english.
If the rest of Canada did as kebec does, there'd be anarchy. They're the spoiled child of the nation.
But, ya GOTTA make a an effort if you want to immigrate to our country, imo. If not, go somewhere else.
But, ya GOTTA make a an effort if you want to immigrate to our country, imo. If not, go somewhere else.
Now thier having problems down there too ..In boston of all places the have to post in spanish thats how much the population demographics has changed. Pretty soon french is not going to be taken over by english but by spanish..
Social evolution i guess
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,897
Location: Quebec
Location: Quebec
November 11th, 2007, 05:45 AM
Its easy to blame quebec for evrything, but it is in a peculiar situation. Tho it is and the fore front of a problem thats spreading accross Canada. You come here . you learn the language ...if you don't want to then you don't want to be apart of this society....then what are you doing here ?
Its easy to blame quebec for evrything, but it is in a peculiar situation. Tho it is and the fore front of a problem thats spreading accross Canada. You come here . you learn the language ...if you don't want to then you don't want to be apart of this society....then what are you doing here ?
Super Genius
Posts: 1,135
Location: Montreal
Location: Montreal
November 11th, 2007, 11:03 PM
It's too easy to label Quebec as being anti-immigrant because of the whole debate on reasonable accomodations right now. The public hearings certainly aren't helping Quebec's image because litterally any idiot can come to the mic and say whatever he wants. Of course, ROCers who enjoy bashing Quebec will only focus on the negative and ignorant comments while forgetting all the thoughtful ones.
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From the PQ point of view, no right would be taken away, it simply wouldn't be given in the first place. It's quite a difference. People having immigrated in Quebec BEFORE the passing of the law (if such a thing ever happens) would keep all the rights they presently have. But people immigrating in Quebec after the passing of the law would simply not be given the rights in question, would they fail to learn French appropriately. Those people coming to Quebec would be informed of the situation and it would entirely be their choice as to whether or not they can live with that. This is not being anti-immigrant, it's simply setting the rules in your own house...
The problem is that Quebec is a living in a bigger house called Canada. That's the REAL issue.
If Quebec were a country, it would have its own constitution and citizenship and it would be absolutely free to demand a minimum knowledge of French to be granted the right to vote and present one's self in an election. And what would be so wrong with that? If I was American, I'd expect someone to at least understand and read English with a minimum of decency to be granted the right to vote. I'd feel the same in any country. How can you understand the issues and debates of country if you don't understand its language?
The big deal with this is that Quebec is part of Canada and in Canada there are 2 official languages while in Quebec there is only one. But what the PQ is proposing would affect provincial elections, not federal elections. So it all brings it down to the good old Quebec vs. Canada debate... Provincial autonomy vs. federal unity...
People living in Quebec who don't like the PQs idea will defend themselves by affirming their Canadian identity, as if being Canadian was ABOVE being a Quebecer. For most Canadians, that's the way it is... But not for most Quebecers.
---
That being said, before asking immigrants to learn French, we should examine ourselves. A lot of Francophones would do very poorly at a French test...
It's too easy to label Quebec as being anti-immigrant because of the whole debate on reasonable accomodations right now. The public hearings certainly aren't helping Quebec's image because litterally any idiot can come to the mic and say whatever he wants. Of course, ROCers who enjoy bashing Quebec will only focus on the negative and ignorant comments while forgetting all the thoughtful ones.
---
From the PQ point of view, no right would be taken away, it simply wouldn't be given in the first place. It's quite a difference. People having immigrated in Quebec BEFORE the passing of the law (if such a thing ever happens) would keep all the rights they presently have. But people immigrating in Quebec after the passing of the law would simply not be given the rights in question, would they fail to learn French appropriately. Those people coming to Quebec would be informed of the situation and it would entirely be their choice as to whether or not they can live with that. This is not being anti-immigrant, it's simply setting the rules in your own house...
The problem is that Quebec is a living in a bigger house called Canada. That's the REAL issue.
If Quebec were a country, it would have its own constitution and citizenship and it would be absolutely free to demand a minimum knowledge of French to be granted the right to vote and present one's self in an election. And what would be so wrong with that? If I was American, I'd expect someone to at least understand and read English with a minimum of decency to be granted the right to vote. I'd feel the same in any country. How can you understand the issues and debates of country if you don't understand its language?
The big deal with this is that Quebec is part of Canada and in Canada there are 2 official languages while in Quebec there is only one. But what the PQ is proposing would affect provincial elections, not federal elections. So it all brings it down to the good old Quebec vs. Canada debate... Provincial autonomy vs. federal unity...
People living in Quebec who don't like the PQs idea will defend themselves by affirming their Canadian identity, as if being Canadian was ABOVE being a Quebecer. For most Canadians, that's the way it is... But not for most Quebecers.
---
That being said, before asking immigrants to learn French, we should examine ourselves. A lot of Francophones would do very poorly at a French test...
