Canada debates pullout from Afgnaistan

[Karlin]

Three links below are all related to Canada's role in Bush's War on Terror.

The first one tells of Canada's debating to pull our troops out of Afghanistan, but there is a much deeper concern unfolding - the spread of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan to other mid-east nations, esp. Iran.
That will unleash the Third World War, complete with nukes and a huge increase in global warming due to the fuels used and explosions, fires, etc. The end of the world, basically. Perhaps a rapture for Bush...

And so, as Canada debates our role in Afghanistan and in the War on Terror in general, we find ourselves either helping or resisting the 21st Century's First American War President in his manouverings.

It is time not only to step away from the USA's war machine, but to openly resist further incursions 'into the mid-eastern nations with oil'.

If we do not show contempt for the agenda of this War President, Canada risks losing what is left of our credibility on the world stage. And, the start of WW3 perhaps.

We are finding ourselves involved in the criminal actions taken against Afghanistan, Iraq, and soon Iran. This cannot go on.

We find ourselves involved in the USA's torture programs, and our citizens are getting tortured and yet we do not rage against the perpetrators, but simply pay off the victims and allow rendition flights to continue. This must end. See second article -

The third article below is one way to avert WW3 - by knocking out the financing for it!! Brilliant idea - stop using the US dollar. Some oil-producing nations are doing this allready - getting paid in Euros rather than dollars.

Which would you rather the human race dies of - global warming or WW3? Is this democracy at work in offering us a choice?

What about our actual preferance for a peacefull world with a sustainable environment - is that an option we are willing to abandon simply to fight a phoney "war on terror" that has yet to produce a single attack within the USA mainland since 9/11? Why do you suppose there have been no attacks on America - because they are doing such a good job that not one sucide bomber could walk into an american mall and set it off? Not likely... [there really is no significant threat to America, or Canada. from terrorists].

Karlin

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Canadians debate Afghan pullout:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6356585.stm

Canadian Military Investigates Claim Afghan Detainees Abused:
http://tinyurl.com/389ykv

The World Can Halt Bush’s Crimes By Dumping the Dollar:
http://tinyurl.com/2woplx

 

[tamarin]

Well, I'd like to see the troops come home but I also recognize the world is a crazy place. So what's to become of places like Afghanistan? If we come we have to accept that it will be what it's always been. A primitive redoubt ruled by the strongest. With 6.5 billion people in the world I really don't care about the Afghans at all. But I am concerned about the environment and what can be done to help it. That's where the big sacrifices have to be made. And I don't think even the most peace loving Canuck is willing to make them. They love rhetoric but they can't carry the ball.

 

[#juan]

Well, I'd like to see the troops come home but I also recognize the world is a crazy place. So what's to become of places like Afghanistan? If we come we have to accept that it will be what it's always been. A primitive redoubt ruled by the strongest. With 6.5 billion people in the world I really don't care about the Afghans at all. But I am concerned about the environment and what can be done to help it. That's where the big sacrifices have to be made. And I don't think even the most peace loving Canuck is willing to make them. They love rhetoric but they can't carry the ball.

Foreign armies have been marching into Afghanistan for centuries. The central government has always been nothing but a figurehead. If all the foreign military left, the war lords could get back to shooting at each other like they've always done.

On the environmental front, you are wrong. Canada will carry the ball better than most once we've finished talking about it

 

[L Gilbert]

O've always been of the mind that if you start to do something, finish it. What use is a half a product to anyone. After all that oppression that the Afghans (mostly women) had to put up with, there's an awful lot of them enjoying a bit of freedom to do things, get education, marry who they want instead of who they're told to marry, etc.

 

[darkbeaver]

O've always been of the mind that if you start to do something, finish it. What use is a half a product to anyone. After all that oppression that the Afghans (mostly women) had to put up with, there's an awful lot of them enjoying a bit of freedom to do things, get education, marry who they want instead of who they're told to marry, etc.

I don't think it's quite as rosey as you think, outside of Kandahar nothing has changed except the increase in destruction by Nato bombing.

 

[Avro]

O've always been of the mind that if you start to do something, finish it. What use is a half a product to anyone. After all that oppression that the Afghans (mostly women) had to put up with, there's an awful lot of them enjoying a bit of freedom to do things, get education, marry who they want instead of who they're told to marry, etc.

I never supported the war to save the Afghans but I did support it for revenge of 9/11.

So while we are there we should get the place up and running, but it will take a decade or perhaps longer.

It would also be nice if some of the other NATO countries stepped up to the plate and gave us a hand.

 

[MikeyDB]

The assessment of choice.

I don’t understand how people can continue to regard the immediate and perhaps inevitable decline into anarchy and mayhem that awaits…

Nearly all the philosophies strategies doctrines and moral frameworks used by humanity as developed and implemented by humanity over the past…oh say the most recent 5,000 years…. Appears to be destined to become terminally chaotic far in advance of any inherent failure or planet-wide enveloping “natural” catastrophe might render the planet uninhabitable…

What has been both avoidable and far more prudent than the behaviours we’re all responsible for and which we are all going to experience the results… of in a rapidly shrinking future, should tell us something….

Our assessment of the choices we’ve made and how those choices have structured our civilization to the now foreseeable end….should be everyone’s consideration in the time remaining.

The strategy of “picking up the pieces”…. “Throwing money at” our most recently recognized and acknowledged failures….doesn’t work!

The time to act is at the beginning not at the end….

Before the “regime-change” becomes a “necessary” or a ‘more-tolerable’ alternative than standing aside…. Before the drug addict and the abuser become convenient misdirection….Before the “means” employed in achieving an idealized “end” claims the lives of millions of people who had nothing to do with erecting the artificiality in the first place….

It seems fairly obvious that we as individuals arrive at choice-making…deciding our next moment of behavior not on the basis of what there’s to learn by examining the outcomes achieved through previous decisions, fail to successfully employ a sufficiently broad appreciation of the circumstances of our existence….but choose to forego regarding ourselves as the principal architects of the world we will leave to our children.

If only our survival was in peril that’s horrendously difficult to appreciate… but to completely ignore and through that ignorance… imperil future generations of unborn Homo sapiens is voluntary self-extinction.

We can’t reverse or “un-do” climate change…it’s impossible to alter a system as large as a planet’s atmospheric cushion against solar radiation..that’s evolved naturally for millions of years…which is then suddenly…in geologic time periods…massively and critically thrown out of balance…

We can adapt, employ means to assure the survival of some but unavoidably millions and perhaps billions will fall victim to our ignorance…

We can choose at this time however not to self-immolate under the pressure of greed beliefs and prejudices….

The “moral standard” of organized religions has failed.

The economic “strategies” promised as capable of forestalling the inevitable have run their course…

No government, no church, no cult..no sociological ‘niche population’ can bring fruition to the awareness required to recognize how our personal behaviours have contributed to the situation that faces us all.

All the climatologists all the petroleum millionaires, all the priests and ministers, rabbis mullahs and “holy-men” are powerless to influence the change in level of thinking that will be necessary for millions to survive….

I’m convinced my neighbors and friends, my acquaintances and the greater surge of humanity isn’t up to the task.

I’m sure we’ll all be edified and enlightened by cliché summations like… “As ye sow so shall ye reap” and bright beacons of wisdom like our current strain of politicians….promises will be made…. “issues will be addressed”….and left to these people absolutely nothing will be done.

We as individuals must make a choice.

Up to the task?

I called for revolution before and was ignored…its far more likely to be ignored again….

 

[MikeyDB]

Great.

I will assume that the premature extinction of the human race at our own hand is really what everyone wants after all......

 

[darkbeaver]

Great.

I will assume that the premature extinction of the human race at our own hand is really what everyone wants after all......

Hey MickyDB, I'm getting my knee fixed pretty soon if Uncle Shan don't phuck it up, so I'm up for the revolution sometime mid-spring. I'm convinced nothing else will prevail.:wave:

 

[tamarin]

I should hope the world's best scientists are already discussing emergency plans if global warming accelerates. I'm surprised we've not already discussed a global population cap. If global warming's real we've caused it. We have to control C0/2 emissions and we have to control the major species responsible for them. Afghans? Who cares. They're an irritating diversion from the century's top priority.

 

[CDNBear]

At this point, I will agree, we should re-examine our role in Afghanistan.

If we are not going to share the duties equally among the NATO member, then it's not only time to consider with drawing our men and women for tactical reasons, but also, perhaps we should re-examine our participation in NATO.

 

[darkbeaver]

At this point, I will agree, we should re-examine our role in Afghanistan.

If we are not going to share the duties equally among the NATO member, then it's not only time to consider with drawing our men and women for tactical reasons, but also, perhaps we should re-examine our participation in NATO.

Germany and Italy have announced additional troops for deployment to Ghan real soon and Germany will also be sending 6 or 7 Toronados. Both nations have decided to deploy against the wishes of thier citizens.:wave:

 

[CDNBear]

Germany and Italy have announced additional troops for deployment to Ghan real soon and Germany will also be sending 6 or 7 Toronados. Both nations have decided to deploy against the wishes of thier citizens.:wave:

They could deploy their combined Armies for all I care, if their mandate is to sit in their bases and do sweet FA, they are not much of any use then.

We've been holding down the fort as it were, while the rest of the NATO countries(US exempted)pretty much showed up for photo ops and lip service. Their perspective governments have been to afraid to allow them to actively/fully participate.

 

[MikeyDB]

And what would happen if everyone left?

Ten century tribalism transported into the twenty-first century funded by narcotics that America and Canada and all the great peace-loving nations of the world supply the market...the demand....Fund the seminal undergirding that made Afghanistan a killing field for the Taliban for the Soviets for the Americans and now Canadians..... Our people are dying because the source of the problem isn't in Afghanistan it isn't in Iraq or Israel or anywhere else ....its right here at home.

 

[MikeyDB]

Why can't Canadians and Americans see the problem? Why do millions of Europeans fill those streets in Paris and Germany and all over Europe when they learn thier politicians have lied stolen from them and mismanaged the present and the future.....

When North American's clamour for more models bigger engines... the "freedom" of mobile independence... the mastery of a tiny corner of people's lives....do Canadians consider the cost of that "freedom" what that "freedom" means to a planet whose people are dying and going to die because we have embraced an entitlement to live beyond the planets ability to support.....

When we roll our eyes at the waste and mismangement of billions upon billions of dollars that are spent killing maiming and building the legacy of hatred....do Canadians think about those same billions spent on education, medicine, re-building.....before the warmongers apply the solution of genocide and destruction.....

When we're running around in circles charging up the plastic to celebrate Christmas or buying chocolate for Easter or Valentines Day....when the demand of our domestic population are ignored because the genesis of the trumoil of Sudan of Nigeria of Iraq of Iran of Oman of Saudi Arabia of all those great pools of oil that we all feel entitled to....are iradiated when some fanatic nukes the oil fields and renders make-over of not just the glass bead game of sand and oil but the air and water that everyone breathes....will that be enough to satisfy our appetities?

 

[MikeyDB]

When Canadian families of Servicemen and Servicewomen are forced to fight for their homes because the wealthy owe greater allegiance to their stockholders than they do to the men and women dying for what Canadians call a just democracy….when promises made to natives are ignored and the squalor of poverty and disease claim our children within the glow of multi-million dollar homes and glass and concrete pyramids build to celebrate the execesses of the wealthy….

When law fails, when the seeds of criminality exist right at the very roots of governments….governments that lie and steal from the people, governments that extort billions in dollars and thousands of lies to perpetuate the gap between the wealthy and the poor….when we become complacent with multi-national corporations like Bell Canada and Insurance companies and huge corporate entities usurp the law and hide behind the snake’s words crafted by lawyers to enhance the advantage of the wealthy over the poor ….when our institutions of enforcement demonstrate time and time again that they are ill-trained poorly supported and murderers and profiteers who’ve destroyed the lives of Canadians and relegated our children to suffer for our lack of responsibility…what right do any of us have to expect our children to respect us for the world we permit to destroy our societies and our civilization?

Oh I know!

We can all express our outrage at the injustice and the corruption by voting….

That’s worked so wonderfully in the past….

Yes let’s review …we took to numbering our multi-million death extravegazas around 1920 and the world lived happily until…lucky us we’re only up to WWII….

Systems of government and social structure defined not by the people but in the corporate boardrooms and “under the table” in sleazy restaurants in Montreal…Backroom deals that will build even greater fortunes through buying and selling trading…carbon credits…while the earth chokes to death on its own waste….

It’s obvious that a few hundred thousand or a few million killed in “preserving” our great deomocracies and governments…has left us exactly where we were back then….looking at good ole…number III

Only this time the whole planet dies…

 

[MikeyDB]

Listen to what we are told…

Canada and Denmark squabble over some potential “wind-fall” ..a remote arctic island and our government puffs out its chest and assures us that our “territory” our “resources” will be protected….while we can’t even field enough men and materiel to meet our international commitments….when our politicians tell us that.. “Hey we’re getting those helicopters…by gum and yes we’ll only have to have our SAR and military use these antiques for another ten years”….while thieves like Chretién and Martin are whisked around the globe in luxury jetliners…

Paul Martin has a photo-op after a tsunami killed hundreds of thousands…an opportunity to hawk his good buddies water…Maurice Strong paid for the favour long before and the fact that good Maurice’s water finds its way to Indonesia while women and children carry water from creeks and lakes to wash their children and cook their food….in Canada….where people are made victims to inadequate water purification and die from e-coli bacteria…in Canada in the Twenty-First Century….

You good Canadians voted now didn’t you?

While playing the lame-duck routine and bowing and scraping before our American masters…we allowed our sovereignty to be bought out from right underneath us while Bombardier and multi-millionaire friends of our political representatives made more millions….

These dynamics are all interrelated….everything from allowing our good neighbors to steal billions from us to watching as our good neighbors dump their Devil’s Lake into a Canadian watershed…while our good neighbors put patrol boats on our common waterways with mounted machine guns…where is Stockwell Day and Stephen Harper…is there a photo-shoot somewhere???

Our governments are traitors to the people and your vote hasn’t changed anything in sixty years. The American administration knows you can ignore a million protesters around the world if you can convince a few million at home that those damn Iraqis were responsible for the WTC catastrophe and although no… there never has been any connection made…well certainly the world was held hostage to the square miles of Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles Saddam Hussein had hidden behind his house….so we HAD to DO SOMETHING…….

We had to do something in South East Asia…what did that effort result in achieving…..

We had to do something to prove how just and how moraly superior we are to those stinking Japs so we showed them we had no scruples about killing hundreds of thousands of them in weeks…but the Hutus and the Tutsis’s are murderous rogues who slaughtered thousands while we watched Survivor and Donald Trump on TV….

You people don’t have any sense of any kind of what the world is and why its in the mess it’s in …do you?

It’s them damn Arabs…or them damn Jews….or them damn….

Never anything to do with tolerating our governments being taken over by the ad-man and the defence contractor ….nothing to do with the blackmail of nations to pad-out the “Coalition of the Willing”, a neighbourhood gang just as surely as any found in Calgary or Toronto or Los Angeles…the only difference is that we’ve been conditioned to believe that WE are right!

For evil to succeed requires only that good men do nothing… Edmund Burke had it right….

We’ve been happily mollified and placated by lies and unsrupulous men…we stand at the brink of a world-wide conflagration because we choose to do nothing…. The nothing of killing millions in other lands who were never the problem to begin with…

 

[MikeyDB]

Gay marriage a burning issue..... marijuana....a burning issue.....burkas and veils....burning issue

All these burning issues and people like me actually expect you a$$holes to be interested in talking about your own extinction...

You're not alive...you're dead and can't tell the difference between what's important and what isn't...

Out of here....for good.

 

[darkbeaver]

Phuck we're stoopid.What about a spring offensive MickyDB?

 

[L Gilbert]

I don't think it's quite as rosey as you think, outside of Kandahar nothing has changed except the increase in destruction by Nato bombing.

Oh, what do I think of the whole scen? You must know, because you're telling me I think everything is rosy.
Apparently, you haven't seen the documentaries I have. But, anyway, no I'm not looking at Afghanistan through rosy glasses, but I have seen some good come of the Afghan people's relative freedom.