Gun Control in Canada

[Colpy]

Well, I knew it would happen.

On another thread, the issue of gun control raised its ugly head. This was a completely understandable reaction to the Dawson College shootings, and I thought it desrved its own thread.

So here we go.

BTW, I'm an unapologetic gun nut. I own every type of weapon I can legally, from .22 target pistols to (gasp) military "assault" rifles (prohibited, but grandfathered to me)

I have been arguing this subject for 30 plus years, and the argument has never changed, except that I have given some ground.

I would ask of the folks who would toughen gun control just one thing: don't use the word "compromise". I've been "compromised" so much I .......never mind.

Macho said

Good point about the gun.

I can really see only a few situations in which a person should be allowed to carry arms:

1. A hunter who relies on a rifle for subsistence. Then all he needs is a hunting rifle.
2. A member of a rifle club, in which case there's no reason for him to take the rifle away from the club's premises.
3. Law enforcement.
4. Military.

5. Anyone else? I really can't think of any other valid reason beyond those four above, but you can go ahead and give it a try.

Okay, let's take them one by one:

1. I use a .22 rifle for rabbits, a .223 Rem for coyotes, a scoped 7mm Mauser for white-tailed deer, unless I'm in thick bush, then I use my grandpappy's Win. 94 .30-30 (circa 1922), and I borrowed a .30-06 for moose hunting. Let's see, that's 5 rifles.

I also use a 20 gauge for grouse hunting, a 12 guage for duck hunting...........that's seven guns.

Then I use a .22 pistol for target shooting, and a .357 Magnum revolver to keep my skills sharp for my job..............that's nine guns.

Then I have my father's guns, which have value to me as he was also a real hardcore shooter, and loved them. Then I have a couple of collector's items............well over 120 years old.

Last time I counted I had something like 21 guns......and I could justify the ownership of each one.

2. Do you REALLY think I paid $1,500 for a rifle and scope to leave it at a rifle club?
Are they going to have facilities for cleaning firearms? The rifle club I used to belong to had 70 members, and consisted of a large gravel pit. Exactly where would we store them? And a building itself is not sufficient..........you would need round the clock armed security, or you are just going to have ALL the guns stolen at once.......silliest idea I've heard of in years.

Let me say this.............I work with guns, I used to be president of the above mentioned gun club, my friends are hunters, my family always kept firearms. I know a lot of people, and among that group and their immediate families the guns owned would outnumber the people with ease. More guns than people.

When I was a VERY young man (18 years old) and a minor criminal (to be blunt), an acquaintance was shot dead in a drug deal. That is well over 30 years ago, and he was deeply involved in criminal activity, and was killed by a major drug dealer.

Outside of that case, I don't know ANYBODY among the literally hundreds of folks that has been wounded or killed with a firearm. No injuries, no deaths.

Think about that.

 

[hermanntrude]

I strongly dislike guns and violence

having said that I do believe it's perfectly possible for an intelligent person to use them responsibly and for useful purposes. having said THAT, it's also possible, with ANY legislation a government can impose, for an intelligent person to use them irresponsibly.

fact is that now they exist we should expect loonies to shoot people with them. Very similar to alcohol, except people tend to do the harm to themselves.

I really honestly don't think there's any good in having AK47's etc hanging around... i really don't. they may well be shining examples of manufacture and design, very important in the history of the world, but they sure arent going to be good for anything except killing lots of people. If you hunt, use a rifle, if you shoot at a club, use a pistol or rifle, if you go to war, take an assault rifle. or preferably take a suicide pill in order to avoid having the war.

 

[Machjo]

Suicide pill? how about just requesting a non-combat role?

Look, if the military wanted to train me as a field medic, driver, or even mine sweeper, fair enough. While any of these jobs (especially minesweeper) could put me in harm's way, at least I don't need to commit suicide, nor would any of those jobs be combat roles.

I'm completely opposed to conscientious objection. There are plenty of non-combat roles one could perform in the military.

 

[EastSideScotian]

Re: RE: Gun Control in Canada

Suicide pill? how about just requesting a non-combat role?

Look, if the military wanted to train me as a field medic, driver, or even mine sweeper, fair enough. While any of these jobs (especially minesweeper) could put me in harm's way, at least I don't need to commit suicide, nor would any of those jobs be combat roles.

I'm completely opposed to conscientious objection. There are plenty of non-combat roles one could perform in the military.

medics Carry Rifles and Pistols almost at all times, Medic is a combat role
Minesweaper? You mean Combat Engineer (my trade ill be taking) Underline Comabt they dont just sweap mines, they blow up bridgies build bridges, maintain bunkers build bunkers do recon and combat operations.
Driver? HAH transport, beleaive me, youll have a gun, and youll need it. If you want Non combat perhaps look into being a naval officer.....or a air frame tech...


As for the case of Gun Control, I am somewhat on the fence having owned a few rifles, and getting them registerd in the past with my father and uncles, it was sort of an exspensive deal. But I also see how it is useful, maybe if it was cheaper and less of a hassel.

 

[The Gunslinger]

My dad registered his firearms, and I know what a colossal pain in the ass it was. I support it and all, but sheesh. And then, the lousy card can't even be used as photo ID.

 

[Colpy]

Here's how much things have changed in 30 years.........

In 1976, I sold guns in the sporting goods dep't of a major department store.

At that time, you could walk in off the street and pick out an M1 Carbine .30 Caliber (a military semi-automatic rifle), a couple of 15 or 30 round magazines, and a couple of hundred rounds of ammunition, AND, as long as you LOOKED like you were 17 years of age, all I asked you for was your money...........No licence, no ID, no registration, no restriction on the weapon type, no restriction on magazine capacity..........the ONLY restriction was that you be 17........it was MUCH easier for a kid to buy an "assault" weapon at that time than it is for him to buy a CIGARETTE now.......

Now to buy that same rifle would be tough.........first of all you would have to take the gov't mandated firearms safety course for long guns.............about 40 hours of instruction, and then testing. Then you would have to take the government mandated restricted weapons course........IF you could find a class, which is next to impossible.....I'm not sure how long that one is...........then you would have to get a Firearms Acquisition and Possesion Certificate, which requires you be vetted by three people, including your spouse, and have a background check done on you. You would wait AT LEAST 28 days, and your spouse would be contacted (under the old system, anyway). Then you get your permit....WAIT, you have to belong to a gun club to own restricted weapons, so you find one of those, and join up. So then you go buy your .30 Carbine.....but you have to REGISTER it, more time and trouble. AND you can only get 5 round magazines for it....

Compare the two instances, one in 1976, one in 2006.

Unfortunately, although unheard of before, there were TWO school shootings in 1976. I only remember the specifics of one, where a kid took his father's .44 Magnum Ruger semi-auto rifle out of the gun cabinet and killed 4 at his school in Brantford, Ont, I believe.

The EXACT same thing could happen today.

All that crap for nothing.

 

[EastSideScotian]

.44 Magnum Ruger semi-auto rifle I have shot those at a gun range, very nice gun, been around for a long time still a nice gun.

 

[tracy]

I grew up with guns in the house (dad was a cop, had several hunting rifles), but haven't owned any since I left about 10 years ago. I have NO problem with legal gun owners who are responsible with their weapons. Colpy, you enjoy your guns, they aren't used in any crimes, I say rock on.

I don't see why all the hoops are such a terrible idea though. They don't stop the truly determined in some cases, but that isn't a fair measure of their success IMO. I thought the main point of those regs is the same as short waiting periods to get a handgun down here: it stops nuts from buying a weapon on impulse and using it to shoot their ex-girlfriend right after he catches her cheating or his boss right after he got fired or something.

I do have a problem with legal gun owners who don't store their weapons properly. IMO, if your school aged kid gets your guns and uses them to kill a few classmates, you should be charged just the same as them. There is no reason an adult can't keep their guns stored in a way that a child can't get them with all the fancy storage systems available today.

 

[Colpy]

Yeah.

When I was a young man selling guns, if you had suggested that a LICENCE might be necessary, I'd have become very angry, branded you a dangerous control-freak looney, asked you to kiss various unmentionable parts of my anatomy, and added your name to my list of people to be immediately shot when I inevitably became Prime Minister For Life............but I've calmed down now.

There does need to be some level of control, I would agree to that, and not even consider it to be a compromise, just common sense.

I firmly believe, however, that controling GUNS is a complete waste of time. The answer is to licence owners, and I'll have to get back to this, as my dear wife is calling me off for a shopping trip....(sigh)

 

[tamarin]

Make those who break the law and use guns in the commission of their crime pay a respectable penalty. Canada has a really crappy justice system. Fourth world. A lot of the crime here is instigated by the system itself. If it's not immediately clear what your penalty is going to be for breaking such laws the government isn't doing its job. If a penalty doesn't deter crime, you can bet it's promoting it.

 

[Amik]

We had an incident a couple years ago here at the high school. A teen brought a gun to school and had it in his locker. No one knows to this day what his intention was, but it turned out he'd stolen it from his uncles place. His uncle lives in the country and though he registered his guns, he really didn't see the need to lock them up (who would ever know?) so he kept them prominently displayed on a wall rack.

Fortunately, there was no incident other than another student got worried, and tattled, the police showed up, confiscated the gun and fined the uncle. I work with the uncles wife, and she and her hubby continue to be very angry about this fine.. their take is that they were victims, and they got fined. Without the gun registry, the gun wouldn't have been traced to them, and they wouldn't have been victimized twice.

I have kids in the high school so my perspective is a little different. I think they were negligent, deserve to have been fined, and perhaps should lose the whole collection.
I don't doubt that most gun owners are responsible, but I know a lot of stupid, arrogant people who own guns too. I would think that responsible gun owners, would support making it difficult for irresponsible people to own guns. But for some reason, gun advocates often support the crazies in their right to own guns, and you end up with two extremes.. 'total gun bans' vs 'everybody and his dog can have as many as they want and it's nobody's business where they keep them, what they do with them, or where they got them from.'

In my town, i need to register my bicycle and put a plate on it. I guess this ensures I don't have a stolen bicycle. Shouldn't we expect the same with gun owners?

 

[Liz]

I was a farm kid. Guns are primariliy tools to me. Mostly to protect livestock from predators and from suffering when animals were sick or injured. They were also a hobby to me. I enjoy hunting and shooting targets. For the record, I do not currently own any guns (I am an urban Mom and don't have time or space anymore), but if I did I would think twice before registering them. Recently my father in law received a letter stating that he had thirty days before his hunting rifle would be confiscated. This was because he had failed to renew his POL. He did send in a cheque and the paperwork, the cheque cleared but he did not receive his up to date license. Rather than screw with it, he sold his gun.
The whole scenario of having all of Canada's guns registered is a farce. Unless there is unanimous participation, it is useless. I know far more people with unregistered guns than registered and they plan to keep it that way.

When I was in junior high school, Firearm safety was a mandatory course in my school. We all took it, and learned a bit. I think that the money spent on all this registry nonsense would be far better spent on firearm safety programs and outdoor education (appropriate gun use). Besides, anyone who is going to shoot people doesn't give a rat's ass if the gun is reistered and there are far more guns in this country than anyone can even guess. ( In rural southern Sask. I would guess atleast 2-3 per household.)

 

[athabaska]

I own two rifles. Would never register them. No need to in Alberta (or almost anywhere in Canada) because the province refuses to enforce the insane long gun registry. Alberta MPs and MLAs have refused to register and said said 'come and get me' to Fed Libs in the past and now the registry is a de facto dead issue.

I agree with a comment above re licensing the owner. Let gun owners jump through the hoops once and prove they know how to safely handle a weapon.

 

[fuzzylogix]

1. What is everyone's f*ing fascination with weapons.

2. What the hell is everyone's diffculty in registering their f * ing guns??

Every year in Canada, about 1200 people are killed and 1000 more injured by guns. The economic cost of this is estimated to be six BILLION dollars a year. We are the fifth highest rate of gun death in children <14 years old of industrialized countries. The gun death rate has been statistically clearly linked to gun accessibility.

Oh yes, fire up all the sites by you gun owners and the NRA who try to diffuse statistics by saying you are more likely to die of cancer or being hit by a car.

Tell that to the parents of the kid gunned down on Yonge St on Boxing Day, or the parents of the Dawson crowd.

All this, so you can have that SWEET 20 gauge specially for the grouse.

How secure are your guns in your house Colpy? You've seen what guns can do to a body and you think that is cool? Or maybe you were high when your buddy got hit and the blood was a neat wavy melange of colours.

Guns kill. Guns get stolen. Guns get lost. Guns go off accidentally. Guns go off at the right time when held by people who mistake what they are shooting at.

How hard is it to walk down to an office and fill in a form detailing the guns you have?

And yeah, a gun owner should be responsible for their guns. If they are stolen and used in a crime, the gun owner should be responsible for not having had them secured and/ or not immediately reporting their loss. And a gun owner whose gun kills a child accidentally should be charged with criminal negligence and manslaughter.


And who the hell can justify someone owning a gun like the one used in the Dawson shooting?

 

[Zzarchov]

ya! just like how knives kill even more people than guns! lets register all sharp things!

Sporks for everyone!

Here is an Idea? PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Yes having guns around causes people to die.

You know what over all causes more people to die? The choices people make in voting. Whether it be shutting down hospital funding that causes people to die, worse drug education that makes even one kid out of millions OD where otherwise he wouldn't..

If you can't trust someone with a gun and not be a loon, why would you trust them to vote, knowing they could cause far more people to die by voting in the wrong people. What if we voted in a despot? In the depression that nearly happened in Alberta (remember "Social Credit" which tried to bloom into a police state?)

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: Gun Control in Canada

Okay, one at a time;

FuzzyLogic wrote

1. What is everyone's f*ing fascination with weapons.

The most difficult question......man's single advantage in the natural world was his ability to use tools, weapons are tools, in fact obviously they were the first tools used by man, they were certainly the most widespread..........try and think of ANY tribe discovered in nature in the past 1000 years in which the men weren't armed to the teeth. Good luck. Being armed is man's natural state, being unarmed, and at the mercy of whatever violence is aimed towards him, is an UNnatural state.

Wrap your head around THAT one!

2. What the hell is everyone's diffculty in registering their f * ing guns??

For starters, the system is massively expensive, (just like the shooters told the Justice Committee it would be). A colossal waste of money. In addition, Canadians have registered a number of different classes of weapons with the government.....only to have the government turn around and seize them without compensation. Now they want us to register them ALL.....I don't think so. It is also seen by some as an infringement on our rights......but we'll get into THAT later....

Every year in Canada, about 1200 people are killed and 1000 more injured by guns.

You should mention that well over half of the deaths by firearm are suicide......... that accidental death by firearm in Canada is very rare (less than 70 per year).....that self-defense shootings by police OR civilians are included in the number, and that the vast majority of the remaining deaths were murders committed with ILLEGAL guns, outside of any control by definition..........

Oh, and just for a comparison to the 200 or maybe even 300 involuntary deaths involving firearms in a typical year, 40,000 Canadians die from SMOKING every year, 4,000 of them from SECOND HAND SMOKE! Ten thousand die from "medical misadventure, ie they are killed by their DOCTORS!

The economic cost of this is estimated to be six BILLION dollars a year.

This is simply bullshit. I've seen it before, and it is the cumulative number of every dollar a dead individual would have made in his life, plus, plus, plus,plus,plus. The figure is a ludicrous attempt at controling the opinion of the masses by making it SOUND like it was costing them enormously. ABSOLUTE CRAP!

We are the fifth highest rate of gun death in children <14 years old of industrialized countries. The gun death rate has been statistically clearly linked to gun accessibility.

if there are less than 70 accidental deaths a year, how many could that possibly be? two? three?

Oh yes, fire up all the sites by you gun owners and the NRA who try to diffuse statistics by saying you are more likely to die of cancer or being hit by a car.

Which are, unfortunately for the strength of your argument, all true.

Tell that to the parents of the kid gunned down on Yonge St on Boxing Day, or the parents of the Dawson crowd.

One with an illegal gun, beyond all control by definition, and one by a shooter that had jumped through all the hoops.....both cases strengthening the argument that strict gun control solves NOTHING.

All this, so you can have that SWEET 20 gauge specially for the grouse.

Somebody shot someone with my 20 ga.? Now I'm PISSED!

How secure are your guns in your house Colpy? You've seen what guns can do to a body and you think that is cool? Or maybe you were high when your buddy got hit and the blood was a neat wavy melange of colours.

Locked in sheet metal gun safes, in a house that is almost always occupied, protected by an alarm system. The other "questions" are irrational rants, so I won't answer.

Guns kill. Guns get stolen. Guns get lost. Guns go off accidentally. Guns go off at the right time when held by people who mistake what they are shooting at.

Very rarely.

How hard is it to walk down to an office and fill in a form detailing the guns you have?

Why should I? The onus is on YOU in a free society, to PROVE restrictions on my freedom are worth it.

And yeah, a gun owner should be responsible for their guns. If they are stolen and used in a crime, the gun owner should be responsible for not having had them secured and/ or not immediately reporting their loss. And a gun owner whose gun kills a child accidentally should be charged with criminal negligence and manslaughter.

Typical lefty crap. Blame the victim of a theft for the crimes commited by others......although I agree weapons should be secured.

And who the hell can justify someone owning a gun like the one used in the Dawson shooting?

Here's something most people don't understand. Gill's Beretta Storm fired PISTOL ammunition, not very powerful stuff. The gun looked "hot", yes, but the people at Dawson were lucky he didn't open up with the simple 12 ga shotgun (like what every duck hunter uses) Yes, Gill was carrying a shotgun as well as his Beretta and a Glock pistol.

A typical 12 ga 00 Buckshot load holds 9 pellets of .33 caliber. It is the DEADLIEST close range weapon known to man, without any doubt. Shooting someone with one of those would be very much like shooting him 9 times with the Beretta, all at once. Almost EVERY person hit with that would have been dead.......

Thank God for fancy, pistol caliber carbines.....if one had to choose between two.......

 

[wallyj]

The gun registry is still up and running.Thank god it almost stopped that girl from dying. A person with intent to harn is not going to care if the gun is registered or not. What a colossal feel good project that does nothing but take money from our pockets and gives it to liberal supporters.

 

[fuzzylogix]

1. Re: Man' s fascination with guns. You are correct, Colpy. The history of the world revolves around man's use of weapons. The fascination of weapons is linked to the power it gives the holder. The Dawson killer had weapons as a means of holding power and thereby having self esteem in a world in which he sadly felt inferior and ostracized. Time after time after time, the same story emerges.... the killer had a fascination with guns and had ready access to them.

2. The gun registry should have been a very simple affair. It became a financial and bureaucratic nightmare because of the immense resistance and lobbying against it. The law should be clear. Only certain guns will be allowed and you have to register them. Should a machine gun be confisgated from a 25 year old? You bet. Call it infringement of your rights if you want. I call it common sense.
Gun owners like to use the cost of the registry as proof of its stupidity. It would not have cost this if the gun owners cooperated. But why wouldnt they cooperate? They dont want to lose their automatic assault weapons that everyone can see are not used for hunting. They dont want to have to pay a small fee for the use of their weapons, even though dog owners pay more. They dont want to end up responsible for the use of their weapon in a crime or in an accidental death.

3. Yup, a big majority of gun death are suicides. Now, some suicides are definitive and planned, in that the person really HAS decided to die, and will commit suicide whether they can find a gun or not. However, many suicides are impulsive, and sadly in these cases, access to a gun has ended in tragedy, whereas individuals who didnt have access to a gun often have a more reversible attempt and are saved. As for accidental death, Colpy- what number of accidental gun deaths especially in children, is acceptable? Or will it take your grandchild getting hold of one of your guns to make you say, :NO CHILD SHOULD BE ACCIDENTALLY KILLED BY A GUN.
And what is an illegal gun? One stolen from someone who had it legally? A shotgun bought from Canadian Tire and sawn off? How many of the guns used criminally were bought LEGALLY?

4. Do not try to evade the issue by comparing gun death rates to cancer rates or motor vehicle accident rates or rates of people falling off mountains. That is so pathetic. Are you suggesting as an analogy, that we should not spend money on research of childhood cancers because the rate of adult cancers is so much higher? That is crap reasoning. Why is it the main reasoning of all you gun toters?Note Zzarchov uses this reasoning too...

5. Yup. The cost of gun injuries is huge. Not just in medical expenses. Not just in economic loss of the victim's livelihood. Not just in the police investigations required. Not just in the loss of learning capacity of students shot at in school or the psychologists hired to repair damage. Not even just the cost of sanitary cleanup of the blood.
But of course, you are correct. If we counter those costs against the profits made by gun makers, then it is a piss in the ocean.

6. Your argument against you registering your guns is "Why should I" For the same reason you have to register a car and a dog and a boat. Why arent you out campaigning that you should have a car without it being registered. Because you want to be able to find out which pig smashed up your car or hit your kid.

Gun owners should be responsible for their guns. They should be liable if a gun is used accidentally. They should be under the rules of cars re drinking. No alcohol and guns. It should be that if you have a hunting accident and you have been drinking, you are convicted of a criminal offence. But as long as we have idiots like Dick Cheney who are avidly campaigning against gun control, we wont see this. Sure, it is OK for the vice president to drink and then shoot his buddy. This is such crap.

I know you wont let go of your phallic symbols, Colpy. You obviously have the type of personality that requires the ego boost of holding that slick piece of metal in your hands, caressing it like a woman's tit, salivating at the power. Do you have a pit bull too?

May you never see the power of the weapons you hold misused. May you never come home to find your kid with your granddaddy's sweet antique stuffed into his mouth with his head blown off. Good luck to you.

 

[Amik]

fuzzylogix,
Hear, hear!

 

[Curiosity]

Jeez does anyone know Canadian history and how the country was settled, populated, cities built, farms created, railway dug through, all the things the modern folk sit back and criticize?

Guns were a vital part of the land during those early times and while they are not utilized in the same manner, I wonder if anyone thinks beyond the criminal mind when they think about guns....

Before there were police....to protect you....you had that one "phallic symbol" (or more if you were lucky - plus a bunch of brothers and an accurate shooter grandma....)

Life wasn't always as it is now - and the need for guns is more restricted and refined - but there is still respect within the value system of many Canadian families which has nothing to do with "offing some dude".....

Some good citizens actually "respect and honor" what the gun did for the early Canadian settlers.

How quickly the lost lotus eaters forget or never bothered to learn being busy with their newly selected wine and cheese favs. Their personal choice being killer drugs rather than the messy firearm.