What is wrong with our "justice" system?

[LittleRunningGag]

I think that we can all agree that our justice system is broken. It doesn't matter what side of the spectrum you fall on, its obvious just how broken it is.

The fact that on average a prisoner only serves 1/6 of their sentence before being put out on parole is unbelievable. That routinely convicted killers face nothing more than a slap on the wrist (anything less than 15 years is a slap, even that is generous). And don't even start on the Young Offenders. :roll:

So, since we all know that there is something wrong with our Justice System, how would you suggest we fix it?

Personally, I would like to see the system actually turned into what is is supposed to be, rehabilitation. No more sitting around doing nothing all day, watching TV, sitting in the pool (yes, there are pools in some of them), etc. Give them the option, better yourself, or sit in a cell. No TV, no books, just think about what you did. Learn a trade, get an education, do something with you life other than learning how to be a better criminal.

In the end I think we could turn the system around. If enough prisoners decide to learn, eventually we would have enough of them to maintain the prisons. They could take care of meals, they could do repairs, etc. Plus, there's the obvious benefit of having criminals actually turning their lives around, become contributing members of society instead of career convicts.

I'd also like to see some real sentences. No more of this BS five years for manslaughter, and garbage like that. Let the punishment actually fit the crime. No one benefits from a legal system that doesn't provide justice.

 

[gc]

Personally, I would like to see the system actually turned into what is is supposed to be, rehabilitation. No more sitting around doing nothing all day, watching TV, sitting in the pool (yes, there are pools in some of them), etc. Give them the option, better yourself, or sit in a cell. No TV, no books, just think about what you did. Learn a trade, get an education, do something with you life other than learning how to be a better criminal.

I agree with this, except that books should be allowed. Afterall how are they supposed to get educated without books?

 

[LittleRunningGag]

Personally, I would like to see the system actually turned into what is is supposed to be, rehabilitation. No more sitting around doing nothing all day, watching TV, sitting in the pool (yes, there are pools in some of them), etc. Give them the option, better yourself, or sit in a cell. No TV, no books, just think about what you did. Learn a trade, get an education, do something with you life other than learning how to be a better criminal.

I agree with this, except that books should be allowed. Afterall how are they supposed to get educated without books?

Well the choice would be either A) work towards something, or B) sit in your cell and think about what you did. If you choose A, you get books, if you choose B you get nothing.

 

[Simpleton]

Speaking as a person that has actually spent time in jail, I can speak from experience when I say that jail is not as bad as some people would have you believe.

I have never done any serious time in a pentitentiary, and I have never been sentenced to jail time, but I have done pre-trial time as the result of being denied bail. However, the almost five months that I did spend behind bars, was very easy time. Privileges were relatively few, but the human spirit is very difficult to break and the human psyche is very adaptable.

The early part of my incarceration was during the civil servants strike a few years back. As a result of that strike, I spent the first couple of weeks locked in my cell with two other guys, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. We were not permitted to go to the yard, or to have regular showers, etcetera. The jail library was not available to us, and it just so happens that the jail radio was broken for the entire 148 days of my incarceration. We did have a television on the range that we could watch, but there was no remote and the television was not within our reach, so we had no control over what we could watch on the television.

When the strike ended and I was moved to a general population range (I had been temporarily housed in the intermittent range) I found my jail time to be somewhat enjoyable. We were permitted to go outside to the yard somewhat regularly, we had a television with a remote, we could shower at anytime during the day, and we were occasionally permitted to go to the library. There were decks of playing cards being distributed freely by the jail staff throughout the course of the strike, and we had several board games like Monopoly and Risk to keep us occupied. Looking back, I would have to say that doing jail time can be something of an enjoyable experience.

I was not involved in any altercations during my stay at the local jail, there were no brawls or anything like that, and violence among the inmates was relatively nonexistent.

I just want to clear up a misconception about inmates that spend time in a jail. The misconception is that inmates learn how to be better criminals while in jail. This just isn't so. Contrary to what many might believe, inmates prefer not to talk about their crimes. Instead, they talk about things that just about everybody talks about: girls, family, events in the outside world, sports, and stuff like that.

In addition, you'd be surprised to know that many inmates do not like to see people return to the jail after they're released. I had several other inmates tell me to keep my nose clean when I got out, saying that I didn't belong in jail.

Of course, I did not do any time in a penitentiary, where I'm sure things would be much different.

 

[tamarin]

Canada's justice system is broken. And it never will be fixed. I can well remember the volume of letters - on just this subject - to the editor when I was more of a keener. And that was over thirty years ago. Nothing's changed. You get a lot of promises and concern. But little comes of it. And then you get the nitwit Charter of Freedoms thrown into the soup and the courts are grinning ear-to-ear. Trudeau and that sorry heap of weaklings that comprised his legacy parliament sold you out. Embedded in your constitution is a document that makes meaningful change almost impossible.

 

[nelk]

Thank you Simpleton;

it takes courage to come out and tell those things.

I had some "inside sources" reporting similar conditions to me.
What strikes me is the willingness of the system to actively rot
people's lifes at a tremendeous cost to society

A cost which would go far to provide excellent education and
training to everyone; not just the ones having the funds or dare to
indebt themself to improve their career chances.

Yes, Tamarin, your observation about our "holy constitution" is shared by many.

We have allowed the system to deteriorate beyond what is acceptable, allowed our leaders to steal ,rob and misbehave
on a scale not seen before.

But citizens are peaceful minding their own business, while the degraded leadership in politics and big business selling out and betray their own fellow men.

It just figures that justice is contorted into something unspeakable; the so called progress an abomination.






:idea:

 

[LittleRunningGag]

When the strike ended and I was moved to a general population range (I had been temporarily housed in the intermittent range) I found my jail time to be somewhat enjoyable. We were permitted to go outside to the yard somewhat regularly, we had a television with a remote, we could shower at anytime during the day, and we were occasionally permitted to go to the library. There were decks of playing cards being distributed freely by the jail staff throughout the course of the strike, and we had several board games like Monopoly and Risk to keep us occupied. Looking back, I would have to say that doing jail time can be something of an enjoyable experience.

This is what I mean. Unless convicts are trying to better themselves, actively participating in their re-habilitation, there should be nothing enjoyable about it. I don't mind granting freedoms, but they should be earned. If a prisoner doesn't want to re-habilitate, then he should be in there for the punishment part of incarceration.

Thanks Simpleton for granting us some insight.

 

[Said1]

In a sense, it is rehabilitation. There are some pretty hard core drug addicts/alcoholics serving short term sentances or awaiting trial in local facilities, where they can dry out. I'm not saying that drugs and alcohol can't be found in jail, but it's probably it bit harder to hustle in there, the way they do on the streets or amongst their friends.....or at least I would think.

I know that's not the same as a rehab program, but lots of people bullshit their way through that too.

 

[tamarin]

Rehab has too many holes in it. Certainly, with the professional criminal, it can only be a joke. None of their rehabilitators will be as smart or as resourceful. Who's in charge is not in dispute. So do what you can. Go the same way as many jurisdictions and charge a per diem for the term of custody. Upon release, make parole meaningful and attach a price tag to freedom. Surely, how can you ever be responsible for your deeds if you're not financially accountable? There are oodles of young offenders out there who have made their birth communities wobble financially from their crimes. Certain insurance rates have skyrocketed and some blanket coverage is simply unobtainable. So make them begin to pay back those they have hurt. It doesn't have to be punitive but it does have to happen.

 

[Simpleton]

Re: RE: What is wrong with our "justice" system?

Rehab has too many holes in it. Certainly, with the professional criminal, it can only be a joke. None of their rehabilitators will be as smart or as resourceful. Who's in charge is not in dispute. So do what you can. Go the same way as many jurisdictions and charge a per diem for the term of custody. Upon release, make parole meaningful and attach a price tag to freedom. Surely, how can you ever be responsible for your deeds if you're not financially accountable? There are oodles of young offenders out there who have made their birth communities wobble financially from their crimes. Certain insurance rates have skyrocketed and some blanket coverage is simply unobtainable. So make them begin to pay back those they have hurt. It doesn't have to be punitive but it does have to happen.

I have several problems with your ideas, tamarin. Firstly, the majority of those who find themselves in jail awaiting trial, or even those that have been convicted, are not in financially stable circumstances. Indeed, some have even gone so far as to draw parallels between poverty and incarceration. Others have even suggested that law enforcement targets the impoverished and turns a blind eye to the criminals that would have the financial means to make monetary restitution to society.

There is also the problem of released convicts finding gainful employment due to the stigma of having been a criminal. This cycle only serves to ensure that criminals return to the justice system, as they merely cannot afford the cost of freedom.

It's all fine and good to point out the obvious holes in the justice system, and the shortcomings of any rehabilitation program, but one cannot overlook the principal causes that make rehabilitation programs necessary. And when you take a serious look at those causes, you will have to concede that poverty and the over-commercialised western culture plays a large role. To have nothing is one thing, but to be deemed a failure as a human being, or to be neglected by society for the simple reason that you exist, or were born into poverty, is an issue that really needs to be addressed.

I, for one, have a difficult time in demanding that society be overly harsh on those who had very little choice but to resort to crime. Indeed, I would even go so far as to say that such unrealistic and ignorant attitudes serve only to feed an already stressed judicial system.

Finally, I don't believe that condemning the Charter of Rights is the answer to any of Canada's problems. Let's remember that the majority of us are decent people, and that we deserve to be counted as such, until evidence, and evidence alone, proves otherwise.

 

[tamarin]

Simpleton, you're part of the problem. I've worked in or been associated with the broad public service for a long time. Family members have been cops and correctional workers (and some still are) and I come from a blue collar neighbourhood. Poverty is always tossed about as a major background to crime; it's there but negligible. None of the many kids I grew up with became criminals and each and every one of them had far less than today's poor. Crime is all about values. And the perception that yours are more important than another's. And age is about the only thing that finally puts many offenders back on track.
If you're able to ruin another's life or destroy valuable community property you can damn well be partially financially responsible for it. Some manner of restitution should be mandatory.
Rehabilitation has always been questioned by front line workers in Ontario and across Canada. Yet it is one part of the package and one that deserves more rigorous scrutiny.
I condemned the Charter before it was rammed through parliament. 'The Lawyers' Employment Act' it was and is. Something as revolutionary as the Charter required a free vote or a referendum. Neither happened. It continues to be a major impediment in the fight to make justice more meaningful in Canada. The country worked just fine before it- and better. If you're in your fifties or older you know that.

 

[Simpleton]

Re: RE: What is wrong with our "justice" system?

Simpleton, you're part of the problem. I've worked in or been associated with the broad public service for a long time. Family members have been cops and correctional workers (and some still are) and I come from a blue collar neighbourhood. Poverty is always tossed about as a major background to crime; it's there but negligible. None of the many kids I grew up with became criminals and each and every one of them had far less than today's poor. Crime is all about values. And the perception that yours are more important than another's. And age is about the only thing that finally puts many offenders back on track.
If you're able to ruin another's life or destroy valuable community property you can damn well be partially financially responsible for it. Some manner of restitution should be mandatory.
Rehabilitation has always been questioned by front line workers in Ontario and across Canada. Yet it is one part of the package and one that deserves more rigorous scrutiny.
I condemned the Charter before it was rammed through parliament. 'The Lawyers' Employment Act' it was and is. Something as revolutionary as the Charter required a free vote or a referendum. Neither happened. It continues to be a major impediment in the fight to make justice more meaningful in Canada. The country worked just fine before it- and better. If you're in your fifties or older you know that.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you. And the argument that the poor of yesteryear were poorer than the poor of today, just doesn't hold water. If you reread my post, you'll note that I attributed the problem to two factors: 1) poverty, and 2) the over-commercialization of western culture.

My I have older relatives that fill me with all kinds of stories about having to walk miles to school through blizzards and rain storms. They tell me all kinds of stories about receiving vitually nothing for their birthdays and on holidays like Christmas. However, if you really listen to what they say, you won't hear them talking about designer, brand-name clothing and shoes. You won't hear them tell you about the "must have" iPods and Xboxes, etcetera.

Back in the day, the distinction between rich and poor was not as apparent, and the stigma of being poor was not as prevailant as it is today. Today, if you don't have certain things, you are a nobody. This is what drives a lot of crime among our young people.

Another problem is that the baby boomers have literally spoiled their offspring, and the Gen-Xers, who are now raising a lot of the "problem children" have been conditioned to believe that punishing their children is wrong.

Poverty absolutely does play a role. Poverty plays a huge role because of how our society has evolved into one of unaparlleled materialism. Never in our society's history have we ever been more materialistic... and this drives the compulsion to commit crime.

(I'll respond to your post again when I'm not so tired.)

 

[tamarin]

Nice try. Poverty is merely a backdrop to crime and not a key element of it. Criminal behaviour is less a product of poverty than values. Take the crime-plagued Jamaican community in Toronto. Poverty's an issue but looming over it is a values crisis. Families are disproportionately fatherless (62%) and the male role models necessary to fostering community supports and values are absent. Success at school is denigrated and a subculture emerges where 'going white' is vilified. Co-operation with police and civic authorities is stigmatized. Poverty didn't create this problem. A lack of values supportive of family, personal and community success did.
Materialism is a big part of Celebrity Culture and the latter is everywhere even muscling today into our traditional news programs. It's ridiculous. And once more this is overwhelmingly a values issue.

 

[Simpleton]

Re: RE: What is wrong with our "justice" system?

Nice try. Poverty is merely a backdrop to crime and not a key element of it. Criminal behaviour is less a product of poverty than values. Take the crime-plagued Jamaican community in Toronto. Poverty's an issue but looming over it is a values crisis. Families are disproportionately fatherless (62%) and the male role models necessary to fostering community supports and values are absent. Success at school is denigrated and a subculture emerges where 'going white' is vilified. Co-operation with police and civic authorities is stigmatized. Poverty didn't create this problem. A lack of values supportive of family, personal and community success did.
Materialism is a big part of Celebrity Culture and the latter is everywhere even muscling today into our traditional news programs. It's ridiculous. And once more this is overwhelmingly a values issue.

Okay, let's uppose that I am wrong and you are right. What is the cause of this "values" erosion?

Why is co-operation with police and civic authorities stigmatized? Could it be because there is a belief that police and civic authorities don't give a rat's ass about the poor single-parent Jamican families?

You can't just say that it's a "values" issue without explaining the cause for the alleged erosion of values. I have a theory, but I'm sure you will say that I am wrong. My theory is that this erosion of values is class-based... It's classic haves versus have-nots. How you could say otherwise is beyond me.

Please elaborate. I'm really looking forward to this.

 

[tamarin]

The Culture of Excuses: It's not my fault 'coz I'm poor or you're racist.' Values are family and community based. And they need lots of support from governments who honour and respect both. I am encouraged by black leadership in Toronto that is reaching out to the Jamaican community. A good start. I am encouraged by provincial and civic leaders there who are promoting youth opportunity this summer. But I'm also aware the violence continues and the shootings in Toronto are making authorities there increasingly desperate. This isn't a Canadian-grown problem. Jamaica has the highest homicide rate per capita in the world and the gang culture of its towns and cities is ruthlessly embedded. The problems of Jamaica came with many of its emigrating citizens and Canada, unable to muster the courage to confront this when vetting such large movements of people, has now openly invited the problem to fester on its doorstep.
Reading your post gives me the unmistakeable feeling you have an almost terminal case of political correctness. Which begs the question, more pressing than your own: how did such a condition occur?

 

[nelk]

Simpleton and Tamarin,

in the larger spectrum of this forum community both of your opinions are not only pretty close but also refreshing .
Many words are wasted to say nothing at times, but your contributions make sense.

Reasons for crime are manifold; quick fixes not successful.
But the legal system wallows in it.
Just take the Gomery inquiry for example, where many tens of millions have been burned up to find the "Truth".

You mentioned the cost and dilemma of insurances, the uninsured cost of being afflicted by crime, the personal trauma, the loss of trust etc; all are counterproductive to have and maintain a healthy
society.

The consequences for crime are so out of touch and restitutions lame to say the least.

The whole idea of what is being called crime also needs to be looked at; just because there is a paragraph in the Law of the land does not neccessarily constitute a "crime" from a citizens point of view.
The law making has been seperated from the peoples and their needs, selfserving the interests of themselves.

Example:
Recently a half dead whale has beached himself on the maritime shores. A fisherman attempted to drag this animal free
and was caught and charged.
The fine for this crime can be up to a hundred thousand $.

This "criminal" behavior has not hurt any of the citizens of this country, did not take money away from others , the animal died anyway for other reasons.
But the law must come down hard; at least to show and assert the authority.

Contrast this with Chretiens show with his golfballs. An incrediable smug gesture in the face of all citizen.
The millions stolen under his leadership, and he didn't know.

Did he suffer any penalty, repaid any damage. "JUSTICE?"

Poverty, family details, neighborhoods etc, none of these applied.

Traditions and subculture of corrupted leadership mattered for sure.

 

[tamarin]

"Traditions and subculture of corrupted leadership mattered for sure."
Dead on! What's evident in Gomery is the warped value system of our elite. At least, Chretien's been tarnished if not punished. All such politicians are eager for a sense of legacy. His, to his chagrin, is to be attached to a scandal that unseated his government.

 

[Said1]

I would agree that both are on the right track too. It takes both citizens AND leadership - in particular, on the local front to make the most significant changes. Citizens really have to work as a collective in communities that are crime ridden i.e. social pressure. They also need the inspiration of community leaders to help in implementing changes and to make sure their voices are heard at higher levels.

 

[Simpleton]

Re: RE: What is wrong with our "justice" system?

The Culture of Excuses: It's not my fault 'coz I'm poor or you're racist.' Values are family and community based. And they need lots of support from governments who honour and respect both. I am encouraged by black leadership in Toronto that is reaching out to the Jamaican community. A good start. I am encouraged by provincial and civic leaders there who are promoting youth opportunity this summer. But I'm also aware the violence continues and the shootings in Toronto are making authorities there increasingly desperate. This isn't a Canadian-grown problem. Jamaica has the highest homicide rate per capita in the world and the gang culture of its towns and cities is ruthlessly embedded. The problems of Jamaica came with many of its emigrating citizens and Canada, unable to muster the courage to confront this when vetting such large movements of people, has now openly invited the problem to fester on its doorstep.
Reading your post gives me the unmistakeable feeling you have an almost terminal case of political correctness. Which begs the question, more pressing than your own: how did such a condition occur?

The culture of excuses? Excuse me?

Have you ever personally dealt with corruption? Do you know what it's like to have to take a position against someone that is right just because he/she has more money/power/influence than you do? Do you have any experience in being labelled a liar simply because you cannot afford credibility?

I'm sorry tamarin, but from reading your posts on this issue, I can see that you clearly do not have a clue.

You are quick to point out that there is an erosion of values among our disenfranchised (read: poor, disadvantaged, and under-represented), and then you continue two posts later in your condemnation of the nations elite and established. In your view, Canada's wealthy and powerful also suffer from an erosion of values.

You suggest that persons working with the disadvantaged, will bring about some real change and help alleviate some of our problems with crime. You suggest that Jamaica has the highest homicide rate per capita, but you offer nothing by way of validation. You do not dare delve into the economic conditions that the vast majority of Jamaicans find themselves living in.

There is a very real clash of the classes in this country, and in almost every other country around the globe. You will probably find statistics that show the poor and the minority immigrants to be among the largest segment of our criminal population, but these statistics would be telling only a small part of the story. The reality is that the minorities and the poor are targetted by law enforcement. It's a whole "guilt by suspicion" epidemic that manifests itself in the poor commiting crimes and being caught.

You are so terribly off the mark, that I find myself almost loathe to respond to your very apparent ignorance. Yet, I feel I must, as ignorance is very much a part of the problem.

As for me being guilty of political correctness, I stand convicted. I see no reason to denigrate those that society already so ignorantly condemns. Perhaps this man's sense of right and wrong, this man's concept of justice, differs from yours only in the sense that this man demands the truth. I am not eager to condemn any person or group based on politically incorrect propaganda and the skewed data offered by self-interested parties.

 

[tamarin]

I'm right on the mark. You're the ignorant one. Do you read papers? Prominent dailies in the last few months- both in key articles and letters to the editor- have reiterated the situation in Jamaica and its harrowing homicide rate. If you read Ontario's chief dailies you'd know that. The question remains for Canadians and especially Torontonians: how did the GTA's large Jamaican population (250 000 strong) get so quickly rooted there when the federal government has insisted that Canada is demanding of the educational and skills levels of its migrants? If the Jamaican community in Toronto is economically straitened, it's remarkable given the majority have come here in the last 30 years. Toronto's boasts being the world's most cosmopolitan, diverse and multicultural city. To their credit, most communities have been large contributors to that reputation but there are a few who blemish it. And PC or not, the story has to be told. The Globe and Mail especially had led the fight to expose the source of Toronto's nightmarish gun violence and Jamaica is fingered time and time again. A quick look at today's Star has a 52 Division detective stating the obvious: gunplay in Toronto is "out of control."
Start reading. I'm not your supervisor. You've got a lot of catching up to do.