Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,838 
Location: Independent Palestine
Location: Independent Palestine
June 20th, 2006, 11:20 AM
Furious Canadians bombarded the prime minister with e-mail following controversial spring decisions not to lower Parliament Hill flags for soldiers killed in Afghanistan or allow the public to view their return to Canada, documents obtained by the Citizen show.
The letters, sent via Stephen Harper's website and obtained under the Access to Information Act, provide a glimpse into the public psyche during one of the first major missteps by the Conservative government.
The decisions followed the deaths of four soldiers -- Cpl. Matthew Dinning, Bombardier Myles Mansell, Lieut. William Turner and Cpl. Randy Payne -- in a roadside bomb incident.
Of the thousands of e-mails that poured into Mr. Harper's office the day after he imposed a press ban on homecoming ceremonies in April, an overwhelming majority were highly critical.
For each positive endorsement of the policies, there were approximately 50 angry notes filled with words such as "disgraceful, shameful and cowardly."
Many called on the prime minister to stop copying the "George Bush-like" policy of hiding military deaths to protect public support for the mission.
The U.S. president has been roundly criticized for banning pictures of flag-draped coffins coming back from Iraq.
"As you have no doubt heard from your critics, this is a page right out of Bush's book," one Toronto resident wrote. "Stephen, if you really understood this country and its citizens you would know we don't hide from hard tasks."
Another pointed out that "the same policy in the U.S. has backfired. I thought the Harper government would back the military and show pride."
Current and retired soldiers had harsh words as well. One man, who said he served 21 years in the Canadian Forces, expressed regret after the media ban for voting Conservative.
"In my time in the army I saw no less than five of my comrades (sic) give their life for their country," he wrote. "The families and loved ones of these soldiers would have enjoyed the fact that Canadians actually cared enough about soldiers to watch."
Fallout from that decision continues to haunt the Harper government.
At a funeral last month for Capt. Nichola Goddard, another Canadian killed in combat, her father said he could "see no reason" for the press ban and found it "troubling."
Cpl. Dinning's father screened home video footage of the ramp ceremony that he said "Mr. Harper wouldn't let you see up close" at his son's funeral the month before.
Several other military families felt compelled to write to Mr. Harper in April.
"As the mother of a young soldier serving in Afghanistan, I would like to express my dismay at your decisions regarding the honouring of the four most recent casualties," a Calgary resident wrote.
"As a member of a military family, I am saddened to see the flag on the Peace Tower flapping merrily in the breeze as four men, who have paid the ultimate price for our freedom, return to their country."
Another mother of a soldier serving his second tour of duty in Afghanistan was angry over Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor's argument that the press muzzle wasn't political and was only intended to protect the privacy of soldiers' families.
"The unprecedented media ban, which government officials say is 'permanent,' is totally bizarre," she wrote. "To Mr. O'Connor and all politicians I say hogwash -- don't insult the intelligence of all Canadians."
A handful of correspondents noted they had never spoken to a politician before.
"In almost 46 years of living, I have never felt compelled to communicate with any member of Parliament until now," one said, calling the two decisions "a travesty."
The criticism was non-partisan, as several professed Conservatives expressed dismay and offered advice.
"Come on Prime Minister Harper, be big enough to admit a mistake and reverse that (flag) decision," a Nova Scotian with a son in the army wrote. "I expect that would garner you votes. You are not expected to be right all the time."
Even those who suspected their letters would never be read felt the need to write.
"I won't write as much as before, as I have no reason to believe a human being will ever acknowledge this -- my prior reply was nothing more than a cookie-cutter auto-response," one person wrote. "But I thought you should know, I don't appreciate you putting the gag order on the ultimate 'accountability act' -- the media."
Canada has approximately 2,200 military personnel in the Kandahar region of Afghanis-tan.
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/...09a6678d87&p=2
Furious Canadians bombarded the prime minister with e-mail following controversial spring decisions not to lower Parliament Hill flags for soldiers killed in Afghanistan or allow the public to view their return to Canada, documents obtained by the Citizen show.
The letters, sent via Stephen Harper's website and obtained under the Access to Information Act, provide a glimpse into the public psyche during one of the first major missteps by the Conservative government.
The decisions followed the deaths of four soldiers -- Cpl. Matthew Dinning, Bombardier Myles Mansell, Lieut. William Turner and Cpl. Randy Payne -- in a roadside bomb incident.
Of the thousands of e-mails that poured into Mr. Harper's office the day after he imposed a press ban on homecoming ceremonies in April, an overwhelming majority were highly critical.
For each positive endorsement of the policies, there were approximately 50 angry notes filled with words such as "disgraceful, shameful and cowardly."
Many called on the prime minister to stop copying the "George Bush-like" policy of hiding military deaths to protect public support for the mission.
The U.S. president has been roundly criticized for banning pictures of flag-draped coffins coming back from Iraq.
"As you have no doubt heard from your critics, this is a page right out of Bush's book," one Toronto resident wrote. "Stephen, if you really understood this country and its citizens you would know we don't hide from hard tasks."
Another pointed out that "the same policy in the U.S. has backfired. I thought the Harper government would back the military and show pride."
Current and retired soldiers had harsh words as well. One man, who said he served 21 years in the Canadian Forces, expressed regret after the media ban for voting Conservative.
"In my time in the army I saw no less than five of my comrades (sic) give their life for their country," he wrote. "The families and loved ones of these soldiers would have enjoyed the fact that Canadians actually cared enough about soldiers to watch."
Fallout from that decision continues to haunt the Harper government.
At a funeral last month for Capt. Nichola Goddard, another Canadian killed in combat, her father said he could "see no reason" for the press ban and found it "troubling."
Cpl. Dinning's father screened home video footage of the ramp ceremony that he said "Mr. Harper wouldn't let you see up close" at his son's funeral the month before.
Several other military families felt compelled to write to Mr. Harper in April.
"As the mother of a young soldier serving in Afghanistan, I would like to express my dismay at your decisions regarding the honouring of the four most recent casualties," a Calgary resident wrote.
"As a member of a military family, I am saddened to see the flag on the Peace Tower flapping merrily in the breeze as four men, who have paid the ultimate price for our freedom, return to their country."
Another mother of a soldier serving his second tour of duty in Afghanistan was angry over Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor's argument that the press muzzle wasn't political and was only intended to protect the privacy of soldiers' families.
"The unprecedented media ban, which government officials say is 'permanent,' is totally bizarre," she wrote. "To Mr. O'Connor and all politicians I say hogwash -- don't insult the intelligence of all Canadians."
A handful of correspondents noted they had never spoken to a politician before.
"In almost 46 years of living, I have never felt compelled to communicate with any member of Parliament until now," one said, calling the two decisions "a travesty."
The criticism was non-partisan, as several professed Conservatives expressed dismay and offered advice.
"Come on Prime Minister Harper, be big enough to admit a mistake and reverse that (flag) decision," a Nova Scotian with a son in the army wrote. "I expect that would garner you votes. You are not expected to be right all the time."
Even those who suspected their letters would never be read felt the need to write.
"I won't write as much as before, as I have no reason to believe a human being will ever acknowledge this -- my prior reply was nothing more than a cookie-cutter auto-response," one person wrote. "But I thought you should know, I don't appreciate you putting the gag order on the ultimate 'accountability act' -- the media."
Canada has approximately 2,200 military personnel in the Kandahar region of Afghanis-tan.
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/...09a6678d87&p=2
Executive Member
Posts: 9,222 
June 20th, 2006, 11:46 AM
The idea that the flags on Parliament Hill be lowered
for every death of a soldier is ridiculous. The war in Afghanistan will likely get worse, and Harper will soon have our military in Iraq as well and lowering the flags for every death will become meaningless. Better we leave this to the home towns of the soldiers killed.
The idea that the flags on Parliament Hill be lowered
for every death of a soldier is ridiculous. The war in Afghanistan will likely get worse, and Harper will soon have our military in Iraq as well and lowering the flags for every death will become meaningless. Better we leave this to the home towns of the soldiers killed.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,239
Location: Edmonton
Location: Edmonton
June 20th, 2006, 11:51 AM
Harper embodies the ideals that a lot of service members do. Send the troops overseas, let them do their jobs, but don't ***** them out for the media. The lowering of flags in the manner the Liberals did was utterly against the rules of flying colours in Canada. Furthermore is was a slight against those who've fallen before (as I highlighted in a post a month or so ago). Ultimately, tarting up the dead for the media and the public is something I cannot stand.
Harper embodies the ideals that a lot of service members do. Send the troops overseas, let them do their jobs, but don't ***** them out for the media. The lowering of flags in the manner the Liberals did was utterly against the rules of flying colours in Canada. Furthermore is was a slight against those who've fallen before (as I highlighted in a post a month or so ago). Ultimately, tarting up the dead for the media and the public is something I cannot stand.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,838
Location: Independent Palestine
Location: Independent Palestine
June 20th, 2006, 11:52 AM
And if that is the way it was the Cons who wanted the Flag lowered and the Libs agreed.
I still don't personally know about the flags. I haven't decided yet.
Quoting
He changed his mind and left O'Conner to take the Flak because of it.
Harper embodies the ideals that a lot of service members do. Send the troops overseas, let them do their jobs, but don't ***** them out for the media. The lowering of flags in the manner the Liberals did was utterly against the rules of flying colours in Canada. Furthermore is was a slight against those who've fallen before (as I highlighted in a post a month or so ago). Ultimately, tarting up the dead for the media and the public is something I cannot stand.
And if that is the way it was the Cons who wanted the Flag lowered and the Libs agreed.
I still don't personally know about the flags. I haven't decided yet.
Ponderous Intellect
Posts: 4,465
Videos: 1
Location: Surrey, British Columbia
Videos: 1
Location: Surrey, British Columbia
June 20th, 2006, 12:02 PM
In relation to the lowering of flags, I think that we need to recognize that our reality has changed since the time that the original rules were drafted (the rules to which the prime minister is apparently reverting). However, he also seems to be moving away from our traditional rules of lowering the flag for parliamentarians in the manner that was once done, which leads me to believe that his staunch position on the "tradition" of flag-lowering is not quite as staunch as he would want Canadians to believe.
I think that a compromise would be in order. This incident speaks quite clearly to the fact that Canadians want to see a testament to our fallen Canadian Forces, out of respect for their service and commitment to Canada. Perhaps we should lower the flag on the Peace Tower during periods of the deaths of soldiers, but for no more than one day per week, regardless of the number of deaths? Or something like that, I'm just trying to throw an amicable suggestion out there.
In relation to the lowering of flags, I think that we need to recognize that our reality has changed since the time that the original rules were drafted (the rules to which the prime minister is apparently reverting). However, he also seems to be moving away from our traditional rules of lowering the flag for parliamentarians in the manner that was once done, which leads me to believe that his staunch position on the "tradition" of flag-lowering is not quite as staunch as he would want Canadians to believe.
I think that a compromise would be in order. This incident speaks quite clearly to the fact that Canadians want to see a testament to our fallen Canadian Forces, out of respect for their service and commitment to Canada. Perhaps we should lower the flag on the Peace Tower during periods of the deaths of soldiers, but for no more than one day per week, regardless of the number of deaths? Or something like that, I'm just trying to throw an amicable suggestion out there.
Stuck in Ontario...bah
Posts: 706
Location: Petawawa Ontario
Location: Petawawa Ontario
June 20th, 2006, 12:21 PM
I think the Flags should be lowerd, As a Sign of respect to Canadas fallen. I do not however agree with large media attention on the return of Bodies and the bothering of Families of the fallen. Some Families may want to talk to the media...if so then fine, but the media should not be so invasive of cermoneys unless requested otherwise byt he family.....I wouldnt want the media all over my Funeral.
I think the Flags should be lowerd, As a Sign of respect to Canadas fallen. I do not however agree with large media attention on the return of Bodies and the bothering of Families of the fallen. Some Families may want to talk to the media...if so then fine, but the media should not be so invasive of cermoneys unless requested otherwise byt he family.....I wouldnt want the media all over my Funeral.
Senate Member
Posts: 5,230
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
June 20th, 2006, 01:24 PM
Think about this. During WW II we lost 44,000 Canadian servicemen, or about 22 a DAY on average.
I think to have left our flags at half-mast for 6 years would have been a drain on morale, a sign of a lack of determination, and would be almost cowardly in the face of an enemy.
Fly it high and proud, I say.
Just my opinion, though.
There is certainly good grounds for both sides here.
Quoting
So, if things get nasty in Afghanistan, and we start losing soldiers at a regular pace, should flags be kept at half-mast continually?
I think the Flags should be lowerd, As a Sign of respect to Canadas fallen. I do not however agree with large media attention on the return of Bodies and the bothering of Families of the fallen. Some Families may want to talk to the media...if so then fine, but the media should not be so invasive of cermoneys unless requested otherwise byt he family.....I wouldnt want the media all over my Funeral.
Think about this. During WW II we lost 44,000 Canadian servicemen, or about 22 a DAY on average.
I think to have left our flags at half-mast for 6 years would have been a drain on morale, a sign of a lack of determination, and would be almost cowardly in the face of an enemy.
Fly it high and proud, I say.
Just my opinion, though.
There is certainly good grounds for both sides here.
Executive Member
Posts: 9,222
June 20th, 2006, 01:55 PM
Agreed Colpy
We do have Remembrance Day once a year when we honour our war dead. Canada's yearly ceremony at the cenotaph in Ottawa is likely one of the most tasteful of these ceremonies in the world. Why cheapen that so some politician can make brownie points?
Agreed Colpy
We do have Remembrance Day once a year when we honour our war dead. Canada's yearly ceremony at the cenotaph in Ottawa is likely one of the most tasteful of these ceremonies in the world. Why cheapen that so some politician can make brownie points?
Knows Too Much
Posts: 2,004
Location: Proud to be in Alberta
Location: Proud to be in Alberta
June 20th, 2006, 05:48 PM
Personally, I think the media blows themselves way out of proportion on issues like this. I do not need to see grieving family members up close and personal upon the return of their fallen family member. Seems a little macabre to me.
Quoting
Think about this. During WW II we lost 44,000 Canadian servicemen, or about 22 a DAY on average.
I think to have left our flags at half-mast for 6 years would have been a drain on morale, a sign of a lack of determination, and would be almost cowardly in the face of an enemy.
Fly it high and proud, I say.
Just my opinion, though.
There is certainly good grounds for both sides here.
I think if the families want the media present at the repatriation ceremony, that should be their choice. However, if there happen to be multiple remains at the same time, this has to be unanimous, or no media. Frankly, I would not want the media present at that time. Lowering the flag each time, to me, lowers the meaning of the gesture. If the families want the media present at the funerals/rememberances of the fallen, then so be it, that again is their choice. Quoting
So, if things get nasty in Afghanistan, and we start losing soldiers at a regular pace, should flags be kept at half-mast continually?
I think the Flags should be lowerd, As a Sign of respect to Canadas fallen. I do not however agree with large media attention on the return of Bodies and the bothering of Families of the fallen. Some Families may want to talk to the media...if so then fine, but the media should not be so invasive of cermoneys unless requested otherwise byt he family.....I wouldnt want the media all over my Funeral.
Think about this. During WW II we lost 44,000 Canadian servicemen, or about 22 a DAY on average.
I think to have left our flags at half-mast for 6 years would have been a drain on morale, a sign of a lack of determination, and would be almost cowardly in the face of an enemy.
Fly it high and proud, I say.
Just my opinion, though.
There is certainly good grounds for both sides here.
Personally, I think the media blows themselves way out of proportion on issues like this. I do not need to see grieving family members up close and personal upon the return of their fallen family member. Seems a little macabre to me.
