Lower Flags on the Hill: Martin

[FiveParadox]

On Saturday, the Right Honourable Paul Martin, P.C., M.P., the Member for LaSalle—Émard, urged the present Government of Canada to lower the National Flags on Parliament Hill to half-staff, in response to the deaths of members of the Canadian Forces. The statement was made while he was on his way to a meeting of the Province of Québec caucus of the Liberal Party of Canada.

canada.com[/color]]Martin is the latest person to wade into the controversy that erupted this past week after four Canadian soldiers were killed in Afghanistan. Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Conservative government has refused to lower the flags, saying they should be only be lowered once a year on Nov. 11 not every time a member of the Armed Forces is killed during active duty.

Under current protocol, flags are automatically lowered upon the death of a number of political players such as sitting MPs, senators and privy councillors, and to commemorate days such as Nov. 11. Lowering the flag for others, however, can be done at the discretion of the prime minister.

Click here to read the entire article in English.
Cet article n'est pas disponible en français à ce temps.

:arrow: My Opinion Re: The Flag Debate

I think that the current debate over whether or not the National Flag should be lowered for the deaths of members of the Forces, while founded, often ignores the fact that various practices of the Government have evolved over time, and this issue may be just that sort of case. I would suggest that, notwithstanding whatever practice may have been exercised a century ago, that practice has changed, and a practice not in keeping with the last century's "tradition" is no longer the expectation of the population.

The newer practice of lowering the flag for the deaths of members of the Forces was initiated by James Moore, M.P., the Member for Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam (the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services and the Minister for the Pacific Gateway and the Vancouver-Whistler Olympics), when he received the unanymous consent of the House of Commons to lower the flag for a specific case.

:?: Sources
1. Click here for the Web site of canada.com.

 

[Johnny Utah]

News Flash to Paul Martin in 2002 Jean Chretien took it upon himself to disregard set protocol regarding the lowering of the Flag. PM Steven Harper reinstates the set protocol and the Media with the Liberals are using this issue to score political points against PM Harper.

Does it even occur to any of these critics everytime you lower the Flag for a death of a Canadian Soldier the Taliban and other Terrorists see that as a step closer to breaking Canada's resolve in Afghanistan.

November 11th is a day set aside to remember Canada's Fallen, remember them that day.

 

[FiveParadox]

Johnny Utah, I would remind you that it was a Conservative member who moved to have the flags lowered, and it was adopted unanimously. Every member, including the Conservatives, adopted the motion. This was a decision of every party.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: Lower Flags on the Hill: Martin

Johnny Utah, I would remind you that it was a Conservative member who moved to have the flags lowered, and it was adopted unanimously. Every member, including the Conservatives, adopted the motion. This was a decision of every party.

I would really like to see this entire motion, but have not been able to find it. Maybe some of you more computer literate folks out there can find it and post it. I am curious as to whether it was for a one time only event, or whether it was meant to be a continuous thing.

Personally, I agree with Johnny Utah on this. I do not buy into the theory that this somehow diminishes the soldiers, nor do I buy into the theory that this, and the media ban, is to somehow keep this out of the publics view or thought. Hell, these two events have publicized the armed forces more in the last couple of weeks than anything ever did before. I mean, really, when was the last time that most of you could give a name to one soldier who died, let alone all four? No way did this keep the deaths out of the public eye, instead it has been front and centre for two weeks.

I still want an answer to what would happen if someone suggested all retail stores remain closed on November 11 in honor of all the soldiers, past and present, living and dead? Do you think there would be more folks at the local cenotaph? Naw, me neither.

Keep November 11 as the day to remember. All other days, fly the flag high and proud.

And Paul Martin, no one really cares what an old, has been politician like you has to say. You and Joe Who are peas in a pod, now. Go away. Just go away. And take Jean with you while you are at it.

 

[sanch]

Five did state it was for a specific event. The practise began with the conservatives and they seemed quite happy to support it until this.

Let the soldiers be recognized for their service. Let their families and communities and nation come together and recognize them for their sacrifice. Why should we have to wait for November 11? Let November 11 stand as a historical holiday to commemorate past sacrifices and as time passes the current generation of soldiers will be recognized on this day.

What is wrong with a ceremony and the lowering of the flag to recognize sacrifices in the present? It makes absolutely no sense to deny families of the deceased soldiers this honour.

I wonder why Harper is so paranoid about media attention? He is very quickly moving in a Stalinist direction in his suppression of media and now celebration.

Lowering of Flags to Half-Mast

Mr. James Moore (Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, CPC): Mr. Speaker, when I was walking to the office this morning I was actually saddened and disappointed to notice that the federal government has not recognized appropriately the tragic loss of Lieutenant Chris Saunders yesterday in the HMCS Chicoutimi. Therefore, I am rising today to ask unanimous consent of the House for the following motion. I move:


That this House demand the Prime Minister instruct all federal government buildings to immediately lower all Canadian flags to half-mast to recognize the tragic death of Lieutenant Chris Saunders yesterday on the HMCS Chicoutimi.

Hon. Eleni Bakopanos: Mr. Speaker, on a point of clarification, perhaps, did we not yesterday in the House in fact have a moment of silence? On the premise of the hon. member’s statement, I am sorry, there was in fact recognition of and respect for the family, and the opening of the member’s statement is erroneous.

The Deputy Speaker: This is not debate. There is a point of order. There has been a motion proposed to the House. The House has heard the motion. Does the hon. member have the unanimous consent of the House to move the motion at this time?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

The Deputy Speaker: The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

The Deputy Speaker: I see no dissent.

The motion is adopted.

(Motion agreed to)

[38th Parliament, 1st Session, Edited Hansard • No. 004
Thursday, October 7, 2004ansard 11:25]

http://www.parl.gc.ca/38/1/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/004_2004-10-07/han004_1125-E.htm

 

[bluealberta]

As I read this, then it was for one particular soldier at one particular time. That, to me, seems to be far different than saying this is the way it will be done from here on in.

Listen, I respect the soldiers as much or more than anyone. The point is, though, that by lowering the flag for every death, the potential is there to make the act meaningless. Don't get me wrong, I pray that we do not have that many armed forces deaths, but how would you have treated the last four tragic deaths? Should the flag be down for seven days for each soldier? Five days? One day? If four die together as they did, that means we have the potential to have the flag lowered for anywhere from 4 days to 28 days, and then what happens if another soldier loses his/her life? The problems are obvious, which is why I support the November 11 day being recognised as the day of remembering the soldiers.

You did not answer my question about closing all retail stores either. Funny how no one wants to answer that one. Wonder why.

 

[FiveParadox]

bluealberta[/i]]As I read this, then it was for one particular soldier at one particular time. That, to me, seems to be far different than saying this is the way it will be done from here on in.

bluealberta, you are correct — when the Member for Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam had introduced his motion to the House, the motion was in regards to the late Lieutenant Chris Saunders, C.D., in particular. However, I would argue that this motion set the precedent for the National Flag to be lowered on future occasions, so as to avoid implicating that Lt. Saunders had been more important than any of the future deaths which occurred.

bluealberta[/i]]Listen, I respect the soldiers as much or more than anyone. The point is, though, that by lowering the flag for every death, the potential is there to make the act meaningless. Don't get me wrong, I pray that we do not have that many armed forces deaths, but how would you have treated the last four tragic deaths? Should the flag be down for seven days for each soldier? Five days? One day? If four die together as they did, that means we have the potential to have the flag lowered for anywhere from 4 days to 28 days, and then what happens if another soldier loses his/her life? The problems are obvious, which is why I support the November 11 day being recognised as the day of remembering the soldiers.

I have suggested elsewhere, and would suggest here, that perhaps we could come to a compromise on this issue; where a member of the Canadian Forces dies on-duty in modern times, the National Flag on the Peace Tower, in particular, could be lowered out of respect for the member of the Forces, for twenty-four hours after notification of the death of that soldier has occurred, to signify that the nation mourns the death of that most honourable and self-less person. If multiple members are killed in close proximity of time, then the time periods should overlap. No other flags should be lowered, to signify that Canada is moving forward with courage, confidence and a strong resolve (this is just my own opinionated suggestion, though).

bluealberta[/i]]You did not answer my question about closing all retail stores either. Funny how no one wants to answer that one. Wonder why.

I am of the opinion that stores should have the right to decide when they wish to open, and when they wish to close. No, I don't think that they should be forced to close through any sort of Order-in-Council, or the Statutes of Canada, but I think that it might be an appropriate convention for the retail community to adopt.

:!: Addendum

bluealberta[/i]]Funny how no one wants to answer that one. Wonder why.

Wow — smug much? :roll:

 

[bluealberta]

Suggestions worth considering, Five.

I realize that there is no way that the stores will be closed on Nov 11, my point was simply that for all the handwringing going on about this issue, I would bet any amount I could afford that there will be more people in the malls the first hour they open than there will be at any cenotaph in the country. As one who attends the services, I find this a bit.....no, a lot........hypocritical and smacks of opportunism to make a point about a Harper policy they don't agree with. When they show up at the cenotaphs, then they will have credibility, but until then, their opinions carry much less weight with me than others do.

 

[Kreskin]

What bugs me as much about these debates is no matter what decision is made both sides will defend their holy party to the end. If the shoe was on the other foot the same nonsense would be hotly debated from polar opposite ends. In other words, no matter what Harper decided to do (lower it or not) conservatives would defend it to the end and blame the opposition for opportunism. The same goes with the NDP and Liberals. No matter what choice the Conservatives made it would be the wrong one and the song and dance would begin.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: Lower Flags on the Hill: Martin

What bugs me as much about these debates is no matter what decision is made both sides will defend their holy party to the end. If the shoe was on the other foot the same nonsense would be hotly debated from polar opposite ends. In other words, no matter what Harper decided to do (lower it or not) conservatives would defend it to the end and blame the opposition for opportunism. The same goes with the NDP and Liberals. No matter what choice the Conservatives made it would be the wrong one and the song and dance would begin.

You are probably right, but I will say that I have always supported the idea of having Nov 11 be the official day of rememberance.

 

[Kreskin]

Re: RE: Lower Flags on the Hill: Martin

What bugs me as much about these debates is no matter what decision is made both sides will defend their holy party to the end. If the shoe was on the other foot the same nonsense would be hotly debated from polar opposite ends. In other words, no matter what Harper decided to do (lower it or not) conservatives would defend it to the end and blame the opposition for opportunism. The same goes with the NDP and Liberals. No matter what choice the Conservatives made it would be the wrong one and the song and dance would begin.

You are probably right, but I will say that I have always supported the idea of having Nov 11 be the official day of rememberance.

Me too. I attend Rememberance Day cenotaph services every year, from start to finish. I could go either way on the flag lowering.

 

[FiveParadox]

I think that the only things that I have ever attended that could come close to such a thing would have to be the Remembrance Day Assemblies throughout elementary and high school. The ceremonies at school could hardly be described however, in most cases, as anything "moving". Not often, anyway.

 

[Finder]

Conservative, Democrat, Liberal, Green or Seperatist, I think lower the flag costs the nation nothing but shows much respect to those who gave their lives for Canada. I understand the reason to why some may disagree but lowering the flag will hurt no one and not lowering hurt many. I think this is not a partisan issue, but has turned into one. I think if the current government lowered the flag but explained why they hadn;t at first they would save face, and show to those who felt that they should that conservatives will listen to them. They will gain cred and not lose it as they are right now with some people.

 

[sanch]

What I read was that it was some aide in the PM's office who suggested this. It was just another way of managing the news by not creating photo-ops and having the nation contemplate the peace keeping losses with flag lowerings. They thought they could weather the negative public reaction, which in their minds would last about a week. Obviously any ceremonial recognition would create news and news is what this government does not want. That seems to be the issue. They want to control the news.

It could be that inexperience in governing is forcing them to make these kinds of mistakes. But given the emphasis on ministerial control from the PM’s office, the backtracking on the accountability bill and the elimination of public ceremony, it appears there is a larger agenda as well. I am surprised that conservatives have been so quick to support and defend this “big brother” style of government.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: Lower Flags on the Hill: Martin

I think that the only things that I have ever attended that could come close to such a thing would have to be the Remembrance Day Assemblies throughout elementary and high school. The ceremonies at school could hardly be described however, in most cases, as anything "moving". Not often, anyway.

Then I suggest in all seriousness that you attend your local ceremonies at your local cenotaph. The school assemblies cannot come close to the emotions at the centophs, IMO. Then go to your local legion after the ceremonies and listen to the stories the vets tell, it is really quite something. I have done it for a lot of years, and never get tired of it. Try it, you will like it, Five.

 

[Johnny Utah]

The sadest thing about November 11th is people use that Holiday to go shopping, or see a movie. They don't take the time to remember the fallen. I'm not sure how it's in schools now but when I was younger in school we were taught of the sacrifices made, that wearing the poppy was an important symbol.

 

[pastafarian]

God help me, but I find myself in strange company on this one.
8O
The fact is that all the fuss is about the Peace Tower flag, which has never been lowered for each individual soldier killed. In fact, it would have been permanently at half-mast in both WWI and WWII. The towns and provincial legislatures of our fallen soldiers lower their flags, so I don't see any merit in the current call for the Peace Tower flag to be lowered.

The number of casualties should never be a consideration when justifying a war unless you're contemplating surrender. The only issue is the righteousness of the cause.

If the families are OK with publicity for their dead loved ones, then
the media has a duty to remind us of those who are dying in the name of Canada. The PM is dishonouring the soldiers if he seeks to avoid coverage of canadian military deaths for political gain.

That's all I have to say on this.

 

[bluealberta]

God help me, but I find myself in strange company on this one.
8O
The fact is that all the fuss is about the Peace Tower flag, which has never been lowered for each individual soldier killed. In fact, it would have been permanently at half-mast in both WWI and WWII. The towns and provincial legislatures of our fallen soldiers lower their flags, so I don't see any merit in the current call for the Peace Tower flag to be lowered.

The number of casualties should never be a consideration when justifying a war unless you're contemplating surrender. The only issue is the righteousness of the cause.

If the families are OK with publicity for their dead loved ones, then
the media has a duty to remind us of those who are dying in the name of Canada. The PM is dishonouring the soldiers if he seeks to avoid coverage of canadian military deaths for political gain.

That's all I have to say on this.

I believe that we have established that the original motion for lowering the flag was for one particular soldier, before more casualties became more commonplace. Given that, I have no problem going back to the original and traditional protocol.

Regarding the media, I have mixed feelings. While I appreciate the fact that the media has a job to do, I also do not buy into this "Canada needs to mourn too" stuff. I get no pleasure watching the grief of others. I know, I know, I can always turn off the TV, but I don't know if that is the issue. I think the repatraition of the bodies is an extemely personal and private event. If the individual families want, they can certainly have the media at the funeral. Right or wrong? I don't know, like I said, I have mixed feelings.

Remember and honor November 11.

 

[Johnny Utah]

Good points were made ay why lowering the flag is right to show respect for the sacrifice but at the flip side is everytime a Flag is lowered for the death of a Canadian Soldier the Taliban and other Terrorists could see that as a step closer to breaking Canada's resolve in Afghanistan..

 

[cortezzz]

the beat writer william burroughs used to say that he didnt care for --the --flag

he suggested that if one dipped the flag in hash oil--
he would smoke it!!!!!

has anyone tried this.....