American Deserters

[darkbeaver]

Soldiers Flee to Canada to Avoid Iraq Duty
By Duncan Campbell
The Guardian UK

Tuesday 28 March 2006

Hundreds of deserters from the US armed forces have crossed into Canada and are now seeking political refugee status there, arguing that violations of the rules of war in Iraq by the US entitle them to asylum.

A decision on a test case involving two US servicemen is due shortly and is being watched with interest by fellow servicemen on both sides of the border. At least 20 others have already applied for asylum and there are an estimated 400 in Canada out of more than 9,000 who have deserted since the conflict started in 2003.

Ryan Johnson, 22, from near Fresno in California, was due to be deployed with his unit to Iraq in January last year but crossed the Canadian border in June and is seeking asylum. "I had spoken to many soldiers who had been in Iraq and who told me about innocent civilians being killed and about bombing civilian neighbourhoods," he told the Guardian.

"It's been really great since I've been here. Generally, people have been really hospitable and understanding, although there have been a few who have been for the war." He is now unable to return to the US. "I don't have a problem with that. I'm in Canada and that's that."

Mr Johnson said it was unclear exactly how many US soldiers were in Canada but he thought 400 was a "realistic figure". He had been on speaking tours across the country as part of a war resisters' movement and had come across other servicemen living underground.

Jeffry House, a Toronto lawyer who represents many of the men, said that an increasing number were seeking asylum. "There are a fair number without status and a fair number on student visas," he said, and under UN guidelines on refugee status they were entitled to seek asylum.

The first test cases involve Jeremy Hinzman, 26, who deserted from the 82 Airborne Division and Brandon Hughey from the 1st Cavalry Division. A decision on their applications is due within the next few weeks. If they are turned down the case will be taken to the federal appeal court and the Canadian supreme court, according to Mr House, a process that would last into next year at least.

All deserters, past and present, are placed on an FBI wanted list. Earlier this month, Allen Abney, 56, who deserted from the US marines 38 years ago during the Vietnam war, was arrested as he crossed into the US, a journey he had taken many times before without problem. He was held in a military jail in California for a few days, then discharged.

"They have resuscitated long-dormant warrants," said Mr House. "I know 15 people personally who have crossed 10 or more times without problems and then all of a sudden they are arresting people. It seems like it would be connected to Iraq."

Lee Zaslofsky, 61, the coordinator of the War Resisters' Support Campaign in Toronto, said that he was impressed by the young men who were seeking asylum. "Some have been to Iraq and others have heard what goes on there," he said. "Mainly, what they discuss is being asked to do things they consider repugnant. Most are quite patriotic ... Many say they feel tricked by the military."

During the Vietnam war between 50,000 and 60,000 Americans crossed the border to avoid serving.

 

[FiveParadox]

If there are genuine concerns that there are violations of the rules of war by the United States of America then, in my opinion, asylum should absolutely be granted — at least on an interim basis, until such time as the suspicions can be put to rest, one way or another.

 

[Jersay]

I think the deserters of any war should come to Canada. And if people want to come up to Canada and seek asylum if they need asylum if they don't want to participate they should come up to Canada.

 

[Finder]

I think letting in American's who believe the war is wrong is the right thing to do personally. Nobody should be forced to fight a war they don't believe in, or force to kill someone who they don't wish to harm.
To say otherwise is just wrong and inhumain.

 

[PoisonPete2]

bring them on. I'd love to have more people here with a sence of morality. And, with the Portugese suddenly disappearing, there,s jobs in construction.

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: American Deserters

bring them on. I'd love to have more people here with a sence of morality. And, with the Portugese suddenly disappearing, there,s jobs in construction.

Would that include the morality of appeasement?

 

[zoofer]

Most of these people are not conscientious objectors but slackers and cowards shirking their duty.
Hopefully the Liberal appointed Judges will see the light and boot them back.
Is not the US military all volunteers? Join for a free education but if called up to do your duty cut and run. We do not need those jerks here.

 

[Colpy]

Most of these people are not conscientious objectors but slackers and cowards shirking their duty.
Hopefully the Liberal appointed Judges will see the light and boot them back.
Is not the US military all volunteers? Join for a free education but if called up to do your duty cut and run. We do not need those jerks here.

exactly!

 

[aeon]

Most of these people are not conscientious objectors but slackers and cowards shirking their duty.
Hopefully the Liberal appointed Judges will see the light and boot them back.
Is not the US military all volunteers? Join for a free education but if called up to do your duty cut and run. We do not need those jerks here.

No no, being a coward, i am going to explain to you


coward= A barbarian nation with supertechnologye, who invades a country based on a lie which has been already devastated by sanctions(impose mostly by this same barbarian nation) bomb raid, both gulf wars, and then turn their back and steal their ressources and their huge coorporation, that is to me the best definition of being a coward.


Jerk for you , but smart for me, cause they realise they arent there for what their retarded leaders ask them to do, what we don t need in canada, is people like you, just move to texas, they need braindead like you are.

 

[Jay]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=coward

 

[Curiosity]

At least they were given the correct nomenclature by the Guardian article.

These were sign-on military people who committed to service and then deserted to Canada.

There is no draft in the U.S. at the present time....and as I write this none foreseeable. Nobody forced these people to sign on for military duty.

What I hear in rumblings around California is this: Deserting is a fast track through immigration into Canada.

If they wanted to move up there, they should go through legal channels and do the right thing as everyone else does when asking
for status to live and work in Canada.

Asylum? Is cowardice acceptable as a citizen of Canada these days?

They can't return to the U.S. as deserters unless they are willing to face a jail term - probably longer than their service commitment would have taken. But I guess they know all of this - and Canada does too.

I am sorry Canada is going to be stuck with people like this - even if you feel you are doing the right thing.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I'm inclined to welcome them all. It's true that the American military is all-volunteer, but that doesn't necessarily mean its members have to take whatever its political leaders care to dish out. It's still a free country, with a long and honourable history of civil disobedience in the face of perceived official folly.

Besides, as a citizen of one of the two nations on the planet whose populations historically have been made up of a greater proportion of assorted draft dodgers, asylum seekers, and people looking for a new start and a better life, than any others (yes, America's the other one), I cannot find it in my heart to tell them I think they ought to stay home and try to make things better there.

 

[#juan]

Wednesday's Child

Hey, it's good to see you back.

I kind of hate to put the label of "cowards" on any group and would listen to every story, but still, if you volunteer, you agree to do certain things and part of self respect is doing what you say you will do. I can't imagine joining the army and not expect to be shot at. Some of these people are saying the conditions are worse than they expected but surely they had some idea of the number of dead and wounded before they signed. You can't be a consciensious objector if you volunteer. If they are just looking for an immigration fast track, they will be dissappointed. I think Canada has promised not to be a haven for deserters. They will all be sent back eventually. This is different from VietNam in that the U.S. military is all volunteer this time.

 

[elevennevele]

Some of the things the United States has done in Iraq/Afghanistan are equivalent to war crimes (ie. torturing prisoners). The world body doesn’t know what to do about it because the United States is integrated in some way into every other country in the world. It’s just one of those double standards where the actions of the US couldn’t be committed by a nobody country with the same blind eye.

I can imagine someone being ordered to commit atrocity having a conflict within between duty and what is wrong, both morally and illegally on the basis of international law.

In such a case, rather than be in a position to be forced to commit war crimes, you can imagine why some would desert.

I hate to draw a parallel but if a nazi soldier sought asylum in Canada rather than commit crimes under Hitler, would we still be having this argument?

Torture, is torture and WAS a crime by US standards at one time.

 

[elevennevele]

Re: RE: American Deserters

This is the first part of the article as it's long, but it continues on much the same and I will provide a link. Original article might be in the Telegraph UK.

Again it addresses the conscience of a soldier over duty. We shouldn’t put the label of coward without knowing each individual case. This guy is no coward.

http://www.canadawebpages.com/pc-ed...itorPrimeKeyword=Billyard&editorLink=Billyard

I did not join the British Army to conduct American foreign policy
by Robert Billyard : 28/03/2006

If there is any hope of saving Afghanistan booting out the Americans is an essential first step.

I did not join the British Army to conduct American foreign policy," said British soldier Ben Griffin, a member of the SAS-Britain's elite commando force. Griffin has resigned from the army in disgust after witnessing "dozens of illegal acts" by American troops, claiming they viewed all Iraqi' s as "untermenschen"-the Nazi term for races regarded as sub-human. Griffin is not alone in making this accusation. It has been made by others. He is not the first nor will he be last combatant to register his disdain for the moral depravity surrounding wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

As reported in The Telegraph UK:

Mr. Griffin, 28, who spent two years with the SAS, said the American military's "gung-ho and trigger happy mentality" and tactics had completely undermined any chance of winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi population. He added that many innocent civilians were arrested in night-time raids and interrogated by American soldiers, imprisoned in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison, or handed over to the Iraqi authorities and "most probably" tortured.

He also accused the British prime minister and government of repeatedly lying about the conduct of the war.

Griffin is no ordinary soldier. The SAS is the British equivalent of Canada' s JTF2, America's Delta Force, Green Berets and Special Forces. In World War II parlance these groups were known as commandos, they operate behind enemy lines destroying selected targets and gaining intelligence. They are trained to kill and no trick is too dirty in getting the job done.

But now as with many initiatives started with a somewhat noble purpose it appears these groups are out of control. The dark side of these forces is that they can operate under highest secrecy, with no political accountability, and no adherence to international law such as the Geneva Conventions. They can conduct clandestine warfare and torture with little accountability. Even now US Special Forces are operating in Iran.

Griffin's claims are substantiated in a NY Times article of March 20th 2006 - US abuses extend beyond Abu Ghraib- The article outlines how US Special Forces have a network of detention /torture centres established across Iraq. To avoid being detected and their activities being traced they undergo regular name changes and move under even deeper security once detected.

Griffin is the first SAS member to resign in protest. The fact that he does makes one wonder about the nature of the atrocities he has seen for the very essence of these commandos is their mental and physical toughness and their willingness to be absolutely ruthless. He has been granted an honourable discharge; no doubt because the British government wants to dodge the publicity that a court martial would generate.

 

[Jay]

"I did not join the British Army to conduct American foreign policy"

:roll:

 

[Curiosity]

Wednesday's Child

Hey, it's good to see you back.

I kind of hate to put the label of "cowards" on any group and would listen to every story, but still, if you volunteer, you agree to do certain things and part of self respect is doing what you say you will do. I can't imagine joining the army and not expect to be shot at. Some of these people are saying the conditions are worse than they expected but surely they had some idea of the number of dead and wounded before they signed. You can't be a consciensious objector if you volunteer. If they are just looking for an immigration fast track, they will be dissappointed. I think Canada has promised not to be a haven for deserters. They will all be sent back eventually. This is different from VietNam in that the U.S. military is all volunteer this time.

Thanks Juan

The regular military service along with the benefits are in exchange for the possibility of action on the battlefield. I think much of the problem lies with the weekend warriors...the National Guard - people who were going to school and paying for it through their service once a month and two weeks during vacation time...
They have been caught up in the battle as well. Something they didn't foresee.

As you say and I agree - if they commit for whatever reason - they should do the service regardless.

I think Canada deserves better people than conflicted deserters....

 

[darkbeaver]

At least they were given the correct nomenclature by the Guardian article.

These were sign-on military people who committed to service and then deserted to Canada.

There is no draft in the U.S. at the present time....and as I write this none foreseeable. Nobody forced these people to sign on for military duty.

What I hear in rumblings around California is this: Deserting is a fast track through immigration into Canada.

If they wanted to move up there, they should go through legal channels and do the right thing as everyone else does when asking
for status to live and work in Canada.

Asylum? Is cowardice acceptable as a citizen of Canada these days?

They can't return to the U.S. as deserters unless they are willing to face a jail term - probably longer than their service commitment would have taken. But I guess they know all of this - and Canada does too.

I am sorry Canada is going to be stuck with people like this - even if you feel you are doing the right thing.

I know lots of draft dodgers from the Vietnam era, they are not cowards, they are actually very brave and good people, the peer pressure applied to young males in times of war to join the herd and conduct state murder under the phoney blanket of patriotism
has been used for thousands of years, the bravery to say no to family friends and nation who are wrong is something to be applauded, if you are so ready to send kids to war to die you had better be 100% sure that the mission is laudable and just, this war is one of conquest and murder to serve the rich, it has no higher purpose, it is not just. No one can count the dead young men sent to thier deaths and to kill others in the service of greed and evil.
Your glorification of war is a crime, your characterization of those who do not agree with this war is a crime. Who is the coward, someone who folds under peer pressure and picks up the weapon and murders for greed or one who would resist peer pressure and say no, who really has the guts and strength of conviction? Would you send every young man in your village to war to support your way of life?

 

[Said1]

I would support their decision and would go myself if I could - in order to support the way of life of those who chose to run away and my family.

It's funny, but I had expressed an interest in joining back during the first Gulf War. I didn't want to enlist in order to go to Iraq, it's just something I always wanted to do, the war and my visit to the guidence office was simply a coincidence. Anyway, my poin is that the amount of institutional pressure against it was probably bigger than any propaganda I was "up against" at the time.

 

[Curiosity]

I know lots of draft dodgers from the Vietnam era, they are not cowards, they are actually very brave and good people, the peer pressure applied to young males in times of war to join the herd and conduct state murder under the phoney blanket of patriotism
has been used for thousands of years, the bravery to say no to family friends and nation who are wrong is something to be applauded, if you are so ready to send kids to war to die you had better be 100% sure that the mission is laudable and just, this war is one of conquest and murder to serve the rich, it has no higher purpose, it is not just. No one can count the dead young men sent to thier deaths and to kill others in the service of greed and evil.
Your glorification of war is a crime, your characterization of those who do not agree with this war is a crime. Who is the coward, someone who folds under peer pressure and picks up the weapon and murders for greed or one who would resist peer pressure and say no, who really has the guts and strength of conviction? Would you send every young man in your village to war to support your way of life?

Poor Beav

Your worldview is beholden to nothing - and your "glorification" of the cowards who ran to Canada speaks directly to your non-opinion.

Tell me Beav - what have the Nelson pot-people done for Canada other than to paint pretty pictures and throw clay into salable artifacts demonstrating how sad their lives really are. It's called Avoidance Behavior - a sad testament to cowards all.

Your personal attack upon my opinion of war is so far off base I cannot find appropriate language to write my rebuttal to you sir...
and you are so far off in your idea of what I write and why I write it.... I wonder if you will be able to comprehend what I say here.

I hate war. War kills. I praise those who regardless of their fear and loneliness, go to the foul sand pit and defy fate to do what was agreed upon and decided and carried through. Why do people sign on for military duty? I have no idea. I don't know what makes them tick but if they are going to go for whatever reason their country asks, I will always thank them and stand behind them and
care. Those who run to Canada mock the goodness of those who as you believe go "foolishly" into battle.

You could be right of course - all battle to me is foolish but it is too late now for me. I am committed whether I like it or not.

I put up with this war because I have two stepsons in Iraq.
I have a nephew who has lost much of his right side from a bomb which disabled the vehicle and his group one slimy nite near Baghdad. I have lost a husband to a brain cancer which has been determined a result of his service in GulfWar One. Nobody sits around and expects special privileges in my group. The "safe way".
The "special way". The "superior way". The Dark Beaver way.

Do not stand in judgment of my way of life....because you know a few Nam cowards. God save you and yours sir.