Elected Senate Reform?

Roy

Electoral Member
Nov 23, 2005
218
0
16
Alberta
Tory proposal for elected Senate appeals to core constituency
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OTTAWA (CP) - Conservative Leader Stephen Harper promised Wednesday to establish a federal process for the election of senators. Here's a closer look.

Harper says electing senators would restore the legitimacy of Canada's chamber of sober second thought, which has fallen into disrepute as a refuge for political hacks appointed by the prime minister.

"An appointed Senate is a relic of the 19th Century . . . The Liberal position of all-or-nothing reform, of no change until everything is changed, is designed to take us nowhere." Harper during a campaign event in Vancouver on Dec. 14. 2005.

Harper is playing to his core constituency in the West, where Senate reform has long been seen as a prime way to combat western alienation, counter-balancing the dominance of Ontario and Quebec in the House of Commons. Given the cynicism about government cronyism in the wake of the sponsorship scandal, University of Victoria political scientist Norman Ruff said Harper's proposal to democratize the Senate may also resonate with voters across the country.

Most western Senate reform advocates would ideally like a Triple E Senate: elected, with equal representation from each province and effective powers. But that idea has never gained much support in Ontario or Quebec, the two provinces whose influence in Parliament would be diluted by an equal Senate. Furthermore, such comprehensive reform would require constitutional negotiations, a potential hornets' nest that few federal politicians want to stir up.

Rather than wait for comprehensive reform that may never come, many reform advocates have urged the federal government to appoint only senators who are elected by voters in their respective provinces - an incremental step that doesn't require a constitutional amendment but which would get the reform ball rolling.

That is what Harper is now promising to do. It was not clear, for instance, if Harper intends for Senate elections to be held at the same time as federal or provincial elections. A Tory official said such details would likely be worked out in conjunction with the provinces.

While Ontarians and Quebecers have always been lukewarm or even hostile to Senate reform, Ruff said a proposal to simply elect senators, without making any other changes that would reduce central Canadian clout, would probably be not ruffle too many feathers. However, Prime Minister Paul Martin has rejected piecemeal Senate reform. He told B.C. high school students Tuesday that electing Senators, without changing the current provincial representation in the Senate, would amount to legitimizing regional inequities. Currently, the Atlantic provinces have 30 Senate seats, Ontario and Quebec each have 24 seats, and the western provinces have only six each.

Alberta Premier Ralph Klein has tried to force the issue by holding two subsequent Senate elections but the winners have never been named to the Senate. B.C. introduced Senate election legislation but has never used it. New Brunswick Premier Bernard Lord has flirted with the idea.

©The Canadian Press, 2005
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
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Ok I hope posting in a Conservative Lounge won't get me thrown into a pot of boiling water as I am a NDPer (with some fiscal conservative tendencies).

Anyhow I like Harper's proposal. I do think unlike most NDPers that a multi layered democracy is best for Canada. Where the NDP wish to abolish the Senate I think just as Harper does that reforming the Senate is the best idea and something Canada truly needs.

Because the current Senate has no real responcibility to the people and since Canada is a Democracy, the Senate truly has no teeth or place in the current political field. I think once they are elected by FPTP, PR, STV ot even mixed, they would have some more authority the challange legislation.

I think too many NDPers have a governmental thought which is passed too oftenly on thinkers from the Rousseau legacy and not that of Locke.

Now if the Conservatives would push for electoral reform harder (PR/Mixed or even STV) they may even win my centre-left vote. =-D
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
RE: Elected Senate Reform

The Conservatives quit discussing that about the time that they took over the PCs though, Finder. All they want to do is sneak an American-style Senate in through the back door, which would cripple out government.

The "elected" Albertan Senate nominees are a bit of a joke too. The voter turnout in the "elections" was dismal and the people (or should I say old, connected white men) they have put forth are right-wing radicals. They are there to tweak Ottawa's nose and for no other purpose.

I think the most workable way to go is to slap a six year term on the position, select a couple of senators from each province every year, and slowly increase (you'll never get any province to agree to a decrease)the number of senators from each province until all are equal; let the provinces nominate 3 or more people for each senate position avaiable (if Alberta wants to hold elections, that's up to them, but I don't want to pay for it); then let Parliament have a free secret vote on which nominees should get the positions. Let the Senate amend bills before sending them back to the HofC where the amendments can be accepted or rejected, and encourage them to write bills of their own that the Hof C can either pass or not, but don't expand their powers beyond that.

That gives the provinces a say in who represents them and Ottawa a say in who they have to work with. It keeps the people in the Senate changing while preserving experience and avoiding the costs and political divisiveness of never-ending elections. It will eventually give each province an equal say in the Senate.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
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Toronto
www.mytimenow.net
Re: RE: Elected Senate Reform

Reverend Blair said:
The Conservatives quit discussing that about the time that they took over the PCs though, Finder. All they want to do is sneak an American-style Senate in through the back door, which would cripple out government.

The "elected" Albertan Senate nominees are a bit of a joke too. The voter turnout in the "elections" was dismal and the people (or should I say old, connected white men) they have put forth are right-wing radicals. They are there to tweak Ottawa's nose and for no other purpose.

I think the most workable way to go is to slap a six year term on the position, select a couple of senators from each province every year, and slowly increase (you'll never get any province to agree to a decrease)the number of senators from each province until all are equal; let the provinces nominate 3 or more people for each senate position avaiable (if Alberta wants to hold elections, that's up to them, but I don't want to pay for it); then let Parliament have a free secret vote on which nominees should get the positions. Let the Senate amend bills before sending them back to the HofC where the amendments can be accepted or rejected, and encourage them to write bills of their own that the Hof C can either pass or not, but don't expand their powers beyond that.

That gives the provinces a say in who represents them and Ottawa a say in who they have to work with. It keeps the people in the Senate changing while preserving experience and avoiding the costs and political divisiveness of never-ending elections. It will eventually give each province an equal say in the Senate.

I see nothing wrong with the American system of Government. I may not agree with there current government, nor the FPTP system but how the checks and balances work I don't see a problem. With Canada, the PM is basically a defacto king, with pretty much all the power of Canada given to him.

We don't elect the PM
We Don't elect the Senate
We don't elect the Causcus
We don't elect the GG
We don't elect S-court justices

We elect a single MP to represent us. No wonder Canadians have such apathey towards politics and politicians. Because WHAT can we do, it's way to hard to change this system. Plus People like Paul Martin have said in the past before becoming a PM that things needed to change.

I can't believe I'm defeanding Harper, but the reason behind the way he wants to pull this off is so we don't have to change the constitution at this time as it was hard enough making it the last time.

Also the way harper wishes to do it would allow for the old way to return with ease if it didn't work for some reason, because really the PM would still have the right to appoint senaters but is taking the advice of the people to do so, which can be revoked since it's neither a law or apart of the con.

Well thats my understanding of what Haper wants to do for the short term. I think out of Layton, Martin and Harper, Harper has the best Idea for the Senate and I completely support him on this issue over the other three, in which I normally support Layton.
 

no1important

Time Out
Jan 9, 2003
4,125
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56
Vancouver
members.shaw.ca
RE: Elected Senate Reform

I would not want to get into electing judges or the GG. That would be a bad move.

Why should we elect the caucus? The PM gets elected (indirectly) by the people, by the amount of seats his/her party wins, so why shouldn't he choose the cabinet?
 

Roy

Electoral Member
Nov 23, 2005
218
0
16
Alberta
I have to say that I agree with you Finder on the issue of senate reform and the amount of power the Canadian Prime Minister has. Although I do not see a problem with electing our leader the current way by electing mp's.

The Canadian PM has way to much power being able to choose the Head Of State, the Senate, and Supreme Court Justices. Even in the US this is not acceptable so why do we settle for such a thing in Canada?

Also here in Alberta we did have democratic Senate election however the Liberals just decided to ignore them and appoint their own. This is reckless disregard of democracy. You have to start somewhere and I do support the Conservartive plan for senate reform, as they are the only one bringing up the issue.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
I see nothing wrong with the American system of Government. I may not agree with there current government, nor the FPTP system but how the checks and balances work I don't see a problem.

The constant wrangling between the White House and the upper and lower houses causes deadlocks. Bills get riders on them that have nothing to do with the original intent of the bill. The president signs agreements knowing full well that it'll never get through Congress. Partisan infighting brings things to a standstill. Every president that lasts until his second term becomes a lame duck two years before he's out of office.

It's as screwed up as our system, just in different ways. We'd be nuts to copy it.

We don't elect the PM
We Don't elect the Senate
We don't elect the Causcus
We don't elect the GG
We don't elect S-court justices

The President's cabinet isn't elected either. Not even the Vice President is really elected...they can be switched halfway through a term with no voting necessary.

Supreme Court Justices are also not elected in the US. They are appointed by the president and approved by the Senate. They are appointed for life. They are not even required to have any experience as judges. The entire process is insanely politicized and has revolved around Roe v. Wade since the 1980's.

We elect a single MP to represent us. No wonder Canadians have such apathey towards politics and politicians. Because WHAT can we do, it's way to hard to change this system. Plus People like Paul Martin have said in the past before becoming a PM that things needed to change.

A couple things. First of all, most Canadiaans vote either for a leader or a party. The name on the ballot is a minor consideration in most cases.

Second of all, a good MP is like gold, even if they are in opposition in a majority government. There is much more to parliament than Question Period and votes in the House of Commons. Most of the real work is done in committee and, until recently, committees were far less partisan than the House of Commons.
 

Mechayahiko

New Member
Dec 19, 2005
15
0
1
RE: Elected Senate Reform

The thing about an elected senate is the balance of power. Because right now, Canada is more an elected dictatorship than a democracy. In a democracy, the will of the majority is enforced with RESPECT to the minority. But the canadian system, as long as you have a majority in the house, you can get anything through without any real watchdogs in place. The party system is partly to blame, but the party system is a creation of the process. More of a symptom than the diease.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
RE: Elected Senate Reform

The solution to that isn't to cripple government though, and a EEE Senate is inherently undemocratic because it gives equal power to all provinces regardless of population.

The solution to the inequities in our parliamentary system is proportional representation.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
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Ok
I think my post is being read into a little too much.

I'm just trying to make a few points.

1. our FPTP system is set up for us to vote in one MP from our riding. Not party or PM or anything else. Just one MP. Voting any other way would make our system broken (which it is and thats why I also support electoral reform). But lets just say it works, we vote for the one MP.

2. The PM who is not elected directly by the people, has way too much power and has abolsultly no real check to his power besides a general election (see point one)

3. FPTP messes up the results of a multi party democracy. FPTP is also made for a two party system. In a multi party system such has our's results do not take a proper tempiture of what the people want. For instance, the NDP get 15-20% of the vote and receive only 6% of the seats. (see point one again)

4. Simply reforming the way we appoint senators, giving them at least a sence that the people has chosen them to do the job and not the PM would give the Senate some balls to check at least some of the power of the parliment. It would actually be there job now to do so.

5. Now I'm not a big time Republican but I see no wrong in one day having a president or a GG who we elect, or is at least elected by some body else but the PM.

Currently whoever is PM is King of Canada and has WAY too much power in Canada. Truly since we do not elect nothing but the one MP in our riding we are one of the weakist democracies out there. Now we have an enlightend government and they run things to how the people mostly wish this to be done, but still we should not trust so much power in one man, be it Harper, Martin or Layton.

I'm sticking to my guns on this one and I totally support Harpers vision on the Senate, even though I'm an NDPer.

(spelling mistakes. sorry)
 

Mechayahiko

New Member
Dec 19, 2005
15
0
1
RE: Elected Senate Reform

An elected senate isnt what will cripple the government. Its the people. In canadian politics, party loyalty and lack of cooperation is what would cripple it, and it has. Our government is far from efficient. The senate is there to make sure that the majority isnt there to oppress the minority. The problem is getting that idea into the heads of all involved.
 

MMMike

Council Member
Mar 21, 2005
1,410
1
38
Toronto
Re: RE: Elected Senate Reform

Reverend Blair said:
They are there to tweak Ottawa's nose and for no other purpose.

Good. Ottawa needs a good tweak on the nose. Nah, scratch that - they need a kick in the nose until its bloodied. I can't get too excited about Senate reform while Parliament is so disfunctional. We send voting machines to Ottawa to do whatever the King tells them to do. This has to change.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
1,947
2
38
www.kdm.ca
indeed MMMike. i have long called Canadian politics a game of "pick your dictator".

I do think we need reform, but complete system reform as opposed to a piecemeal approach. A redesign of the system and a rewriting of our charters that could then be put forward to the people to decide on is what i would like to see.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
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Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
This is a great thread on electoral reform.

Am I understanding this correct that you all
want a bicameral, two-house legislature where
a senate is elected and giving equal representation
to each province ?

Also, one other question.

Do you really think not electing the Prime Minister
directly is a bad thing?

You've seen the people in America directly elect
a President, (bar the technical distinctions of the
electoral college which has a tradition of following
the popular vote in each state).

3rd point.
Our state legislatures used to appoint the national
Senators up until 1913 ---- our senate did not have
direct elections.


I wonder whether indirect or direct elections
accomplish getting better leaders either way.
 

Roy

Electoral Member
Nov 23, 2005
218
0
16
Alberta
RE: Elected Senate Reform

ok in a federal election the more populous provinces obviously have the advantage in choosing the leader which is fair i guess. But why not have a senate with equal representation for each province so the more populous province cannot dominate all the issues and laws.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
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www.mytimenow.net
Also don't misquote me on this one too.

I don't care how it's done I don't care who votes for them in the end, or even if in actuality the PM still appoints them. BUT, they should at least be voted in and then appointed as Alberta tried, or selected by the provinces somehow. I just don't like this idea of the PM just having the power to walk up to his sister, or his buddy drunk one day and saying "I the PM/King of Canada make you a Senator". This is totally not the princibles of Canada but really whats to stop any PM of doing this. Yes PM's have been alright in the past with appointments but whats there to stop them?

I think really we could use a multi leveled government, which we have right now. But really so did the Soviet Union, but I think even the soviet union the people had more of a say on who would get into the Duma and Supream Soviet then we do with the Senate and Parliment.

Canada's can thank god that we've had some of the most enlightend politicians to run government and be apart of government because our system could easyly be abused by a despot and there is NOTHING stoping a PM with a magority in Parliment to make Canada whatever he wants for the 4-5 years between elections. People may say they don't care about the Senate but any who cares about having checks and balances to prevent dictatorships and despots should really consider that Canada has been very lucky.

Truly look at Quebec's history in the 30's to the 60's and see how that government was run to see how we could have have it.

Indifferance on this issue is hoping we have enlightend leaders in office forever, and I hope that is the case. But when will our luck run out. Even in the USA Bush is at least held up by not having a 60% magority in the Senate. Thats really the only check they have against him. If bush was the PM of Canada he would have more power then the President of the USA does even with the control of the Congress and a magority in the Senate and conservative judges in the court. Think about that.
 

Mechayahiko

New Member
Dec 19, 2005
15
0
1
RE: Elected Senate Reform

I think senator hopefuls should not have party affilations but
picked from a list of community leaders, people who make a difference in peoples lives. From then on, a direct vote would be good.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
22
38
68
Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
Interesting post, Finder.

Your proposal of the provinces legislatures appointing
a Senator to Ottowa is very similar to what
United States did up until 1913.

Each state legislature appointed 2 Senators to
go to Washington DC.

Reformers under Teddy Roosevelt came in to push
for direct elections of these Senators.
 

neocon-hunter

Time Out
Sep 27, 2005
201
0
16
Cloverdale, BC
RE: Elected Senate Reform

I think each province should have 4 senators each, but would smaller provinces like New Brunswick (10 senators), Nova Scotia (ten Senators)and Newfoundland (6 senators)that have a lot less population than BC (6 senators)but way more senators, be willing to give having more senators up?