Steven Harper

[Hank C Cheyenne]

...if you want to know where Steven Harper stands on some issues here is a link to a good clip......just click on the streaming video clip with the picture of Harper.

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/##2

...it will surprise you where he stands on health care and other issues.....and if you watch the WHOLE thing then I guarantee you you will come away with a different view of Harper.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

A good political speech, to a partisan crowd, which of course all politicians do. It makes them look good, and feel better. It was mostly standard Conservative rhetoric and completely predictable, about tax cuts, ordinary Canadians, whoever the Hell they are, and cozying up to the United States.

But you're right Hank. I've never seen Harper so relaxed and articulate during a speech, and despite the generic vagueness of most of it, his position on health care was clearly and precisely stated, and mirrors my own, which gives me pause. I've never heard him say such things before (or since; that speech was 6 months ago) or seen or heard them reported by any of the mass media. He needs to give some version of that speech in a more public forum than the Fraser Institute's AGM. Or maybe he has and it hasn't been reported? I dunno. I've got some research to do.

I used to say, after Dalton Camp died, that Joe Clark was the only real Tory left in Canadian public life. Toryism, according to what I've been taught, was born in 19th century Britain from a movement that recognized the obligation society's more fortunate members owe to the less fortunate, and originally had a strong collectivist orientation and much charity and compassion. Modern neo-conservatism lacks those things, and instead seems to focus on making the fortunate more fortunate and to Hell with the underclasses.

Harper may be another real Tory. I'm not yet convinced, and I'm sure most members of the Conservative Party aren't real Tories, but at least the door's open. Thanks Hank, some good food for thought there.

 

[Hank C Cheyenne]

...no problem :wink:

I just though that too many people have preconceived notions about Harper being the end of health care and on other issues so yea I jsut though that it would be a good speech to get out there....but yea obviously it was pretty much just same old retoric although I too found the health care bit quite good....

...and its great you can see something for what it is regardless of political partisanship Dexter

...anyways in regards to you comment about not hearing the bit on health care it is just surprising how the media never gets his point of view out...rather it is left for speculation....or maybe this is because of Harpers lack of ability to express his opinions properly. :?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

...maybe this is because of Harpers lack of ability to express his opinions properly. :?

Oh yeah, I hear you on that one. Much of it is television. You can't make it in public life these days unless you can look good on television, and that's got pretty much nothing to do with reality or substance, especially if the media have decided they don't like you. I've been told by people who knew him that Robert Stanfield was a superlative human being and if every voter in Canada could have spent an hour sitting around a kitchen table with him they'd all have voted for him. I find that completely believable. I invest a great deal of time and energy in finding out about the people who offer themselves for political leadership in this country because I simply assume the mass media image is bullshit.

I wish more voters did that.

 

[Hank C Cheyenne]

hey Dex do you remember just this spring with all the fiasco going on in parliment.....when you picked up your morning paper and it quoted Harper as saying that the Liberals and NDP made "a deal with the devil" .....? I remember it sounded bad, almost as if Harper were just saying anthing and that he was crazy!! ...but if you go to the clip and FF to about 9:10 you hear what he really said I think it was rather hilarious and I think the headline overblew it....

...and whats with the horse and canoe registration.... 8O

 

[Reverend Blair]

Harper has said that he wants to scrap the Canada Health Act and our single tier system in previous statements. The President of the Fraser Institute said that the Fraser Institute was responsible for slaying the deficit and would bring in two tier healthcare. In this speech he mentions the Harris/Manning plan, which also had the backing of Ralph Klein. They are arguably the three most influential Conservatives in the country and Harper has a long record of going along with them. Since their position matches the position that Harper previously took, it is very difficult to believe that he and the Conservatives have done an about face.

The speech was given to a partisan crowd in the run-up to an election. He says that he wants to get closer to the US. Look at the US, the mess it's made in the world and of its own economy, do we want to get closer to them?

He says that he wants to get out of Kyoto and come up with a "made in Canada" plan. That's what George Bush said about the US and they have a worse record than we have.

He says he wants to cut taxes and the plan he put forth gave those cuts disproportionately to the wealthy and corporations.

He says he wants to rebuild our military to work more closely with the US. He might as well say that he wants to be George Bush.

His glib babbling about the "canoe registry" at the beginning of the speech shows arrogance and a disconnect from reality. While the Liberal plan for that sucked, Harper ignores that we have a massive inland fishery and a large shipping industry that is not ocean going. If he'd spent any time learning about Manitoba or the north, he'd know that.

Then there are the things that Harper didn't dare mention because he was headed into an election. He didn't talk about the hypocritical shell game he tried to play with abortion. He didn't talk about his bigoted wishes to keep same sex marriage legislation from passing. He didn't talk about his plan to marry our immigration even more closely to the US. He was afraid to mention his wish to make our drug laws look just as insane as George Bush's. He never mentioned that his favourite advisor is a racist feck who despises natives. He never said that he favoured sending troops to Iraq or that his initial reaction to Maher Arar was disdain that we didn't ship Arar off to be tortured ourselves.

Stephen Harper is no moderate, and he's certainly no tory. Harper is an extremist so desperate to gain power that he will say anything if he thinks it will gain him votes. Either he has a secret agenda, or he flip flops and distorts as badly as any politician we have seen. Either way, he's not fit to rule and very likely not fit to look after an already-dead kitten.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

You've put your finger on pretty much everything that's disturbed me about Harper from the beginning, Rev. That speech to the Fraser Institute, taken on its own, was pretty good, and if he spoke that way all the time and was consistent in his positions I'd be somewhat less suspicious of him and his party than I am. As it is, I have no idea what he really thinks about anything, or what he'd do if he got to be PM.

Not that I'm any less suspicious of the crowd currently occupying the front benches in Parliament either... Anybody who wants power that much shouldn't be trusted with it. I should be PM, 'cause I really don't want the job. :wink:

 

[Reverend Blair]

Something that I found interesting about Harper is that when he first won the Alliance leadership, the press claimed to know almost nothing about him. That was crap, of course. They knew his career...he was a policy wonk for Mulroney, then for the Reform Party. The press knew exactly who he was, they just didn't want to reveal their insider status.

He quit Mulroney's team because they weren't extreme enough for him. He quit Manning's because Manning wouldn't run Reform the way that Mulroney ran the PCs. There were some indications that he thought Manning wasn't pro-American enough either. In between his political party gigs, Harper worked for right-wing think tanks and huddled in the UofC basement with the other neo-cons. A lot of the radical right policy papers that came out during that period would have had Harper's input. Those papers were quite extreme in a lot of cases...things like adopting the US dollar.

It always makes me laugh when Conservatives point at somebody and say they haven't had any experience in the "real world". Their leader is more an example of that than anybody else in Canadian politics.

 

[Hank C Cheyenne]

Harper has said that he wants to scrap the Canada Health Act and our single tier system in previous statements.

....he had been clear since he became leader of the PC that he will not scrap the Health Act....many many times

He says that he wants to get out of Kyoto and come up with a "made in Canada" plan. That's what George Bush said about the US and they have a worse record than we have.

....ummmm actually according to many studies the US has done a better job than we have although overall they are still horrible.... just like Canada.

He says he wants to cut taxes and the plan he put forth gave those cuts disproportionately to the wealthy and corporations.

...the plan for the 4.6 billion to go for tax cuts was the right thing to do, rather than the NDP Liberal deal to just spend it......what about the jobs that would be created for Canadians?....and how will the large economies like Ontario compete with the US if their corporate and income taxes are not on par? You only look at it from the Manitoban NDP/socialist point of view.... you have shown that with you idea's for scrapping NAFTA...what effect do you think this will have on the productive provinces....who then have to feed Manitoba and it's likes.

He never said that he favoured sending troops to Iraq

....the only reason we are not in Iraq is because Jean Chretien was PM and had the balls to say NO....I don't like the man or his policies but I respect him for standing up for his beliefs. Paul Martin is a little rug muncher, there has been lots of speculation than he wanted to go to Iraq too, but now he says otherwise...the man has no respect from me.....he just tries to please everyone.

 

[Reverend Blair]

he had been clear since he became leader of the PC that he will not scrap the Health Act

Since he was never leader of the PCs, that kind of explains a lot. :lol:

actually according to many studies the US has done a better job than we have although overall they are still horrible.... just like Canada.

What studies are those, Hank? The ones that say the US system is the most expensive in the world and kills poor people.

the plan for the 4.6 billion to go for tax cuts was the right thing to do, rather than the NDP Liberal deal to just spend it......what about the jobs that would be created for Canadians?

You mean the real jobs that are created for Canadians through social spending instead of the low-wage, no benefit jobs that allow foreign corporations to ship money south and do little or nothing to beneft the Canadian economy.

and how will the large economies like Ontario compete with the US if their corporate and income taxes are not on par?

We have lower corporate taxes than the US. Our personal taxes pay for more services and those services, especially health care, act as an incentive for business here. Just ask General Motors.

Paul Martin is a little rug muncher

I'm sure Mrs. Martin is happy about that, but I think she likely doesn't want it discussed publicly.

 

[Gonzo]

I dont know why the Conservatives get the votes they do. Most people in Canada are not rich and would not benifet from tax cuts and a two tier health care system.

 

[manda]

Personally, I feel that Stephen Harper would be best served if dropped down a well for a week or 2. Just MHO

 

[Reverend Blair]

I dont know why the Conservatives get the votes they do. Most people in Canada are not rich and would not benifet from tax cuts and a two tier health care system.

Much of it is just the remnants of the old two party system. People tend to think of Liberals and Conservatives as the choices. There's also the odd phenomenon of generational voting...people vote the way their parents did. Some of it is because of the rhetoric...people believe the things that Harper says.

The Conservatives don't get as many votes as their seat-count would indicate though. The percentage of the popular vote they receive is lower than the percentage of seats they get. That's why they won't support proportional representation. It's funny to listen them whine about the Liberals not having a "true majority" though. Guess what? They haven't got a "true" opposition by those standards either.

 

[MMMike]

....the only reason we are not in Iraq is because Jean Chretien was PM and had the balls to say NO....I don't like the man or his policies but I respect him for standing up for his beliefs.

You gotta be kidding me. He completely abdicated his responsibility and left it up to the UN to decide for us if we should go to war or not. What a coward.

 

[MMMike]

We have lower corporate taxes than the US. Our personal taxes pay for more services and those services, especially health care, act as an incentive for business here. Just ask General Motors.

I'm sure the $500 million worth of subsidies didn't hurt either. :roll: :wink:

 

[MMMike]

I dont know why the Conservatives get the votes they do. Most people in Canada are not rich and would not benifet from tax cuts and a two tier health care system.

For starters... because they are the only party that is for smaller government, lower taxes. How about because they don't try to over-tax you, and then try to use your own money to buy your vote? :evil:

 

[Reverend Blair]

I'm sure the $500 million worth of subsidies didn't hurt either.

It wasn't me that said it, MMMikey, it was GM.

For starters... because they are the only party that is for smaller government, lower taxes. How about because they don't try to over-tax you, and then try to use your own money to buy your vote?

I believe MMMikey would fall under this category of Conservative voter:

Some of it is because of the rhetoric...people believe the things that Harper says.

 

[#juan]

Rev

Wasn't there some Alberta Conservative politician that gave every Albertan about four hundred dollars? I don't suppose that could be considered vote buying though could it?

 

[Hank C Cheyenne]

Wasn't there some Alberta Conservative politician that gave every Albertan about four hundred dollars? I don't suppose that could be considered vote buying though could it?

...hmmm vote buying ......you ignore the fact that Klein will not be running in the next election because he announced he will retire in 2006.....so how's that vote buying?....not to mention that with the surpluses getting bigger and bigger it will hopefully set the standard for them bonuses at the end of each year...

...now I know $400 does not seem like much...but consider I have a family of four living in our house....so our cheques will total to $1600.....and we are deciding that this Jan or Feb we will be taking a trip to Mexico and a large chunk of it will be covered....... 8)

 

[no1important]

Still know where near what each person in Alaska gets though. :wink: