Nationalize oil firms, almost half of Canadians say


mrmom2
#1
Montreal — Almost half of Canadians wanted to see their petroleum resources and their gas companies nationalized as fuel prices hit record levels, a new poll suggests.

The Leger Marketing telephone survey of 1,500 people was conducted between Aug. 24 and Aug. 31, the bulk being done before the devastating effects of hurricane Katrina were felt.

Gas prices have jumped around 25 cents a litre since the storm that battered the U.S. Gulf Coast.

On Monday, for example, prices in Montreal and Halifax averaged $1.38 a litre but the regulated price in St. John's, Nfld., was $1.48. In Toronto, prices stood at about $1.35 but were also seen at around $1.22.

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Western drivers tanked up for between $1.08 to $1.13 in Edmonton and between $1.07 to $1.14 in Calgary.

In the Leger poll, which was provided to The Canadian Press, 49 per cent of respondents wanted petroleum resources nationalized while 43 per cent said they would like to see the same fate for gas companies.

Quebeckers were the strongest supporters of resource nationalization at 67 per cent, followed by residents of the Atlantic provinces at 53 per cent, Ontarians at 45 per cent and British Columbia at 42 per cent.

Forty per cent of respondents on the Prairies and 36 per cent of Albertans were in favour. Among those opposed, Albertans led the way at 49 per cent followed by British Columbians at 39 per cent.

Quebec led in support for nationalization of oil companies, with 61 per cent in favour, followed by the Atlantic provinces (46 per cent). Alberta was most opposed at 59 per cent, followed by the Prairies (49 per cent), B.C. 46 per cent and Ontario, 41 per cent.

Most of the respondents — 79 per cent — suggested they would like to see taxes on gasoline cut, although federal and provincial governments have made it clear that is unlikely.

Seventy-six per cent of respondents indicated they would like the government to intervene after recent gas hikes preceding Katrina. Fifty-four per cent suggested they would like the government to fix the pump price.

Twenty-six per cent of respondents blamed the gas companies for pre-Katrina price spikes followed by 18 per cent pointing the finger at oil-producing countries.

However, 63 per cent of respondents said pre-Katrina gas price hikes had not affected their fuel consumption. Twenty-five per cent said they were using less gas.

Results of the poll are considered accurate within plus or minus 2.6 percentage points 19 times out of 20.

Katrina cut a swath of destruction along the Gulf Coast more than a week ago, shutting down nine Gulf Coast refineries. It disrupted gasoline pipelines to the Midwest and East and stopped 90 per cent of the oil production in the Gulf of Mexico.

The Gulf is responsible for around 30 per cent of U.S. crude production and one quarter of its gas. A large portion of U.S. oil imports also arrive at Gulf Coast ports. Prices at the pump soared and continued to climb
 
Vanni Fucci
Free Thinker
#2
Yeah...I've been arguing with neocons about this for about a week now...

They're not too happy about the prospect...the big babies...
 
no1important
#3
I saw a couple really arrogant Calgarians whining on the news the other night. Saying they "should be protected from increase oil (and gasoline)prices because they have so much of it" and that "the rest of Canada is jealous of them". Seems to be a common theme from certain people in Alberta. They think they are better than the rest of us.

I think they are scared sh*tless that oil will be nationalized.

But the political landscape is slowly changing in Alberta anyways, Klein lost a few more seats last time, Edmonton is going Liberal quicker than say Calgary.

Hell 36% of Albertans believe petroleum should be nationalized. So I say within 20 years the political landscape in Alberta will be quite diferent.

edited to add- my 2000th post. Only took 2.5 years. Jan 9, 2003 is when I signed on.
 
mrmom2
#4
Way to go no 1
 
ottawabill
#5
Ohh I can see it now as public gas servants go on strike and none of us will get gas.

Honestely though this poll is a knee jerk reaction to the price of oil. Even if the gas companies were nationalized to would have no effect on the world price. We would still pay 2.30 a litre and maybe more with the non productive nature of Gov. companies...Been on an Air Canada flight lately..you really want that service at the pumps???
 
PoisonPete2
#6
I've been an advocate for a nationalized energy industry since I saw the 7 Sisters hold the world to ransom in 1973/74. These oil companies lie, cheat and steal. They deserve nothing less then to be driven out of existence. Yet, in Canada, we can't even come up with a National Energy Policy. Our government puts phony policies in place (like FIRA) and then do nothing cos they are in the pockets of the American Politicians who are in the pockets of big oil and big pharma. We need a major change in our stockpile of politicians. Where is Tommy Dauglas and his ilk??
 
Vanni Fucci
Free Thinker
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by PoisonPete2

Where is Tommy Dauglas and his ilk??

Yeah, I'm right here Dude...but goddammitall, no one will vote for me...
 
Ten Packs
#8
Wonderful idea: we paid hundreds of millions for Petrocan to be created out of BA, British Petroleum, and others. Then we (or at least Canadian investors) paid even more, when it was privatized and sold off.

Now we get to pay for it A THIRD TIME???

Right.....
 
Reverend Blair
#9
Your right, we shouldn't have to pay for it. Let's just go ahead and sieze the assets. (I better say that I'm just kidding before some dim-bulb neo-con wannabe takes that out of context)

The sale of PetroCanada made absolutely no sense though. Having a government-owned energy company would have been an ideal way to introduce alternative fuels.
 
Vanni Fucci
Free Thinker
#10
The Story of Privatization in Canada According to Hansard:

Quote:

Mr. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I have a comment to make on the issue of privatization. There is one story I like to tell about privatization that for me says it all. It has to do with the privatization of the Manitoba telephone system which was done by a Conservative government. It said that it would never do such a thing and then did after it was elected. Many friends of the government made a lot of money by buying cheap shares and having them escalate in value.
The story is about a phone located on the perimeter highway in Winnipeg. The phone was placed there for people whose cars broke down or who had some kind of emergency or whatever. As long as the phone was publicly owned it was fine because it was cross-subsidized and was available as a public service. It was there to serve a public need.
As soon as the Manitoba telephone system became privatized and shareholder value became the guiding principle of that corporation, rather than a public service all phone stations were evaluated. The company felt that phone did not pay because it was only used 75 to 150 times a year. Boom, out went the phone. To me this says it all.
With privatization comes a value system. Only those things which are profitable for shareholders are to be valued. Things that at one time under a different ethic and a different form of ownership served other needs, other than the profit strategies of the corporations and the...

Quote has been trimmed
 
Ten Packs
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by Reverend Blair

Your right, we shouldn't have to pay for it. Let's just go ahead and sieze the assets. (I better say that I'm just kidding before some dim-bulb neo-con wannabe takes that out of context)

The sale of PetroCanada made absolutely no sense though. Having a government-owned energy company would have been an ideal way to introduce alternative fuels.


One-word-answer:

Cash-grab.

(Ok - one HYPHENATED word.)
 
Reverend Blair
#12
I think it's more than a cash-grab, Ten Packs. Martin cut his teeth working in the energy industry. He's got lots of friends there.

It also played well in Alberta, where he was hoping to gain seats and definitely wanted to save the ones he had. Remember how cozy he was with Klein for a while?

Also, energy stocks were on the rise and profits were going up, so it was a long-term source of money.

I don't think anybody but a handful of Liberals and a couple of Conservatives know the whole story, but there was more to it than a simple cash grab.
 
PoisonPete2
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by Reverend Blair

Your right, we shouldn't have to pay for it. Let's just go ahead and sieze the assets. (I better say that I'm just kidding before some dim-bulb neo-con wannabe takes that out of context)

The sale of PetroCanada made absolutely no sense though. Having a government-owned energy company would have been an ideal way to introduce alternative fuels.

Answer - you were sounding like my favourite Venezualan for a minute. I think you are right. We should not have to pay for it. The Canadian taxpayers have already paid for the full infrastructure of the integrated oil distribution system through an overly-favourable tax system. We paid all of the capital costs, 105% of well development, hell we even paid for the loss of reserves (oil depletion allowance) for having them pump out the oil. In other words the major oil companies have robbed Canada blind (or stupid) and they have been allowed to take huge amounts of cash out of Canada with low (or no) tax backs. Then they are not even held responsible for the detrimental environmental impacts. They get to pay token fines. My god, Sears paid more for 2 false advertizing instances than these guys have paid in total for abandoned fields. Nationalize the industry, jail the executives and lets not have any of this "pay for it a third time" crap. Then you have bozos like Klien, who are shills for these companies and have little concept of the true value of what they give away for chump change.
 
Reverend Blair
#14
You'll never sell that to the Liberals or Conservatives in the current political climate though, Pete. The guys running things are the privatisers, not the nationalisers. There's also provincial powers to take into consideration...it isn't just Alberta that will fight it, but Newfoundland, Saskatchewan, and likely BC. Even Manitoba could go the either way since the big find in Virden.

Where I think we should emulate Chavez is insisting that we keep more of the money. The deal Klein swung in Alberta is a joke...Canadians (because the feds subsidize the industry as well) pay all of the costs and take all of the risks. Albertans keep a relative pittance, and Canadians get no direct return whatsoever.
 
Jo Canadian
#15
 
Ten Packs
#16
"Nationalize the industry, jail the executives and lets not have any of this "pay for it a third time" crap."

Welcome to Cuba, 1959.... it's worked real well for them, hasn't it?
 
Vanni Fucci
Free Thinker
#17
While I must admit, I'm not entirely equipped to forecast the socio-economic ramifications of nationalizing the oil industry, I stil think it would be better to have the oil revenues in country, rather than in the hands of foreign owned multinationals that will send the revenues offshore...

As the good Reverend had mentioned earlier, a lot of R&D into alternative energy could be paid for with those revenues...do you think the oil companies are going to do that?

I'm not looking to turn Canada into Cuba-north, I'm just thinking that with that kind of revenue generation, and political capital, we could regain some of the sovereignty that our nation's leaders had sold off over the past 40 years...
 
damngrumpy
No Party Affiliation
#18
Taking over the oil and gas companies could come back to bite us too, as we would have to deal with the ivory tower boys in government. At present there is a second solution for the short term. Put energy fuels under the energy commission with a set price for Canadian fuel, and have a second price for export.
Since we a being told there is a crisis, perhaps the price should be pegged to ensure all income levels can afford fuel and then ration it like they did during world war two. In the long term we have to decide what is best for all Canadians, and that would likely mean, government taking over the sale, and distribution of Canadian fuel resources.
 
Vanni Fucci
Free Thinker
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpy

At present there is a second solution for the short term. Put energy fuels under the energy commission with a set price for Canadian fuel, and have a second price for export.

Isnt' that exactly what the NEP was meant to do...the plan that Albertans claim raped their province so savagely?
 
Jo Canadian
#20
 
damngrumpy
No Party Affiliation
#21
Albertans are always bitching about something, this country must come before any one province in an emergency, or crisis.
I see it this way, if these people are jacking up the price because, there is a shortage of fuel, or there is a disruption of service, that constitutes a crisis that threatens the well being of Canadians as a whole, therefore it is a Federal responsibility, to ensure that we all have accress to fuel at reasonable prices. If there is no crisis, or shortage then the oil people are ripping us off, and that is reason enough to have the Feds take action.
It should also be noted that prior to l947, when oil was first discovered in King Ralphs Kingdom, Alberta was a have not Province and other parts of Canada shared their wealth with Albertans.
 
Vanni Fucci
Free Thinker
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpy

It should also be noted that prior to l947, when oil was first discovered in King Ralphs Kingdom, Alberta was a have not Province and other parts of Canada shared their wealth with Albertans.

Oh that is noted quite often around here Grumpy...but the Albertans' rejoinder will run along the lines that they've payed that back a hundred times over...big babies...
 
PoisonPete2
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by Ten Packs

"Nationalize the industry, jail the executives and lets not have any of this "pay for it a third time" crap."

Welcome to Cuba, 1959.... it's worked real well for them, hasn't it?

Answer - fearmongering to maintain the status quo? Maintain a servile attitude toward America and maybe the U.S. won't beat us up? Cuba 1959 was the overthrowing of an extremely corrupt American backed regime that held on to Cuba for 60 years. Complete with Death Squads and torture. Castro got rid of the Mafia control but those criminals were in bed with a lot of American politicians. Including Nixon. Thus, freeing his people from a crushing oppression won Castro the ire of the U.S. and shortly an economic blockade. This just shows what a bunch of Aholes the Americans are. There are a lot of other countries to trade with. The Americans have proven time after time that they not worthy of trust.
 
Numure
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by ottawabill

Ohh I can see it now as public gas servants go on strike and none of us will get gas.

Honestely though this poll is a knee jerk reaction to the price of oil. Even if the gas companies were nationalized to would have no effect on the world price. We would still pay 2.30 a litre and maybe more with the non productive nature of Gov. companies...Been on an Air Canada flight lately..you really want that service at the pumps???

Air Canada isnt a crown compagnie...
 
JomZ
#25
But, its treated like one. Government payouts to buoy the company through its times of turbulence (a little airline humour). Monopoly collapses don't go overwell for shakey economies
 
Karlin
#26
I would not have even mentioned it, for fear of the backlash. To see that HALF of Canadians want a nationalised oil industry gives me great hope!!

Quote:

It would be the greatest social advancement in Canada's modern history.

What doesn't compute is that voting Canadians seems not to realise that voting either Liberal or Conservative is a vote for the "corporate" side. to some degree, they have been tricked into Left and Right politics, when the real thing they want is not either.

Lets take it a step further than just nationalising the oil industry. Add in energy, communications - everything we all use anyways and have no business being in the "marketplace" due to monoploy and conglomerate. No personal choices need to be accomodated like with food [which we all use too], so these "basic staples" of modern life SHOULD be publically supplied.

When you think of it, nationalising basics would cause the cost of living would go wayyyy down due to 'savings' in several areas:
No competition
No advertising
Steady measured increases in technological advances instead of throwing out all the old phones every two years.

Looking at socialist nations - which I truly believe Canadians really are at heart - that have nationalised these things, we see it is possible. Much better results would be seen in those nations if "American" forces were not working hard against the successess of socialist nations.

Karlin
 
dumpthemonarchy
Free Thinker
#27
With the price of oil rising, why should MNCs hog all the profits and put next to nothing into alternative fuels? The oil companies are not energy companies, meaning they are not willing to look at other forms of profitable fuel. Why should they, the US Geological Survey recently placed Canada second after Saudi Arabia last year in world oil reserves. We moved up by magic from 20th. Amazing.

Ralph Klein recently mouthed that Alberta spends enough billions on Confederation. Perhaps Albertans will change their tune when gas is $2 a litre and everyone wants relief. Which will be lower taxes or nationalization I think.
 
Vitamin C
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by Karlin

When you think of it, nationalising basics would cause the cost of living would go wayyyy down due to 'savings' in several areas:
No competition
No advertising
Steady measured increases in technological advances instead of throwing out all the old phones every two years.

Karlin

Explaint to me how reducing competition could lower prices? The problem with today's economics is that there is not enough competition. When companies get too big they are able to decimate competition and control the markets...

We need a government willing to nurture and ensure competition and capitalism.

The reason people today are unhappy with the way our economies are going is the same reason people are scared of communism.

They are both situations where there is an all-powerful force that controls without question how the markets work.

The problem is we need MORE competition!
 
damngrumpy
No Party Affiliation
#29
Its not a case of nationalizing everything, its a case of controlling who owns the industry and who controls access to the supply.
We have used rationing before in time of war, to ensure we all get what is required to survive in our society.
The good of the nation and the Canadian people must come first, before dividends, and a steady supply to those who don't live in Canada. I say one price for Canadians and a much higher price for those of other countries. But Canadians must have first access to their own resourse. As for Albertans, Ontarians, Quebecers and Britiish Columbians, well we have been bitching ever since we got a coat of arms, and an official piece of land on the map.
Remember the Atlantic Provinces, they have found oil and gas too off their coastal regions and soon they will be paying us for using the name Canadian as well. This is all one country and things ebb and flow we should all quit whining and get on with being a nation.
 
dumpthemonarchy
Free Thinker
#30
The oil companies should continue to develope the public resource that is oil, because they are more efficient. However, their desire to be private should be limited. They will make their %10 ROI, but the gov't royalties will take the excess for the good of the Cdn public. The public should not bear the brunt of high oil and gas prices while oil companies and shareholders reap the immense profits.


The gold bugs are talking about the relationship between oil and gold at:

www.gold-eagle.com/editorials...erg042205.html (external - login to view)

A French report states that oil might be $380 per barrel in less than ten years.

Will oil strike $380 a barrel by 2015 ?
By Adam Porter in Perpignan, France
April 21, 2005

A report prepared by energy economists at the French investment bank Ixis-CIB has warned crude oil prices could touch $380 a barrel by 2015.

Analysts Patrick Artus and Moncef Kaabi said in the next 10 years demand for oil will outstrip supply by around 8 million barrels per day (mbpd).

"If one takes into account the level of previous oil shocks such as in the 1970's, we don't think a price level of $380 per barrel is out of the question," they said. END.


There is oil, but we are at the end of CHEAP OIL.
 

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