Quebec's parlement say no to the Charia

Cathou

Electoral Member
Apr 24, 2005
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Said1

Hubba Hubba
Apr 18, 2005
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RE: Quebec's parlement sa

Does this really surprise anyone? Sharia law does not promote assimilation into french culture. Considering Quebec is a province with such things as "language police", blending Sharia cultural legal customs with Quebec law seems like nothing more than a pipe dream.
 

Numure

Council Member
Apr 30, 2004
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Re: RE: Quebec's parlement sa

Said1 said:
Does this really surprise anyone? Sharia law does not promote assimilation into french culture. Considering Quebec is a province with such things as "language police", blending Sharia cultural legal customs with Quebec law seems like nothing more than a pipe dream.

They choose to live here. We don't prone assimilation, but we will not bend to sexiest laws. No matter the religion.
 

Said1

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Apr 18, 2005
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Re: RE: Quebec's parlement sa

Numure said:
Said1 said:
Does this really surprise anyone? Sharia law does not promote assimilation into french culture. Considering Quebec is a province with such things as "language police", blending Sharia cultural legal customs with Quebec law seems like nothing more than a pipe dream.

They choose to live here. We don't prone assimilation, but we will not bend to sexiest laws. No matter the religion.

You don't promote assimilation? What would you call bill 101?
 

jackd

Nominee Member
Nov 23, 2004
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Saying NO to Charia has been the only non-mistake Charest has made since he has been elected.
Allowing this to happen would only leads to a modern Babel tower.
One set of rules for all is the only way to go.
 

Numure

Council Member
Apr 30, 2004
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Re: RE: Quebec's parlement sa

Said1 said:
Numure said:
Said1 said:
Does this really surprise anyone? Sharia law does not promote assimilation into french culture. Considering Quebec is a province with such things as "language police", blending Sharia cultural legal customs with Quebec law seems like nothing more than a pipe dream.

They choose to live here. We don't prone assimilation, but we will not bend to sexiest laws. No matter the religion.

You don't promote assimilation? What would you call bill 101?

Bill 101 makes French our official language. Just like english is your official language. Without it, newly arrived immigrants would be learning english instead of french.
 

Said1

Hubba Hubba
Apr 18, 2005
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Re: RE: Quebec's parlement sa

Numure said:
Said1 said:
Numure said:
Said1 said:
Does this really surprise anyone? Sharia law does not promote assimilation into french culture. Considering Quebec is a province with such things as "language police", blending Sharia cultural legal customs with Quebec law seems like nothing more than a pipe dream.

They choose to live here. We don't prone assimilation, but we will not bend to sexiest laws. No matter the religion.

You don't promote assimilation? What would you call bill 101?

Bill 101 makes French our official language. Just like english is your official language. Without it, newly arrived immigrants would be learning english instead of french.

That's very over simplified explaination, at best non?
 

Cathou

Electoral Member
Apr 24, 2005
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Montréal
Re: RE: Quebec's parlement sa

Said1 said:
Does this really surprise anyone? Sharia law does not promote assimilation into french culture. Considering Quebec is a province with such things as "language police", blending Sharia cultural legal customs with Quebec law seems like nothing more than a pipe dream.

what the hell are you talking about ? the charia is the islamic law. it's not relate from near or far with the language policy... you know like you can lapidate you wife if she have an affair with another guy, or that you can cut a guy hand if he stole you something...sure thoses things are impossible here. but well, you know that with the charia, womens have absolutely no right ?

should we let every group of immigrants to have their own law ? every religion apply their law outside their church ? it will be a mess if we let that happen...
 

Said1

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Apr 18, 2005
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Re: RE: Quebec's parlement sa

Cathou said:
what the hell are you talking about ? the charia is the islamic law. it's not relate from near or far with the language policy... you know like you can lapidate you wife if she have an affair with another guy, or that you can cut a guy hand if he stole you something...sure thoses things are impossible here. but well, you know that with the charia, womens have absolutely no right ?

What the hell are you taling about, Bill 101 is an example of cultural assimilation within Quebec.

Sharia law would only be applicable as it falls in line with Quebec family law. I doubt the circumstances would be different in Quebec then they are here, in Ontario, where Sharia law is valid. Floggings would be considered assault.

should we let every group of immigrants to have their own law ? every religion apply their law outside their church ? it will be a mess if we let that happen...

Kind of falls in line with the cultural assimilation comment I made.
 

Cathou

Electoral Member
Apr 24, 2005
149
0
16
Montréal
Re: RE: Quebec's parlement sa

Said1 said:
Cathou said:
what the hell are you talking about ? the charia is the islamic law. it's not relate from near or far with the language policy... you know like you can lapidate you wife if she have an affair with another guy, or that you can cut a guy hand if he stole you something...sure thoses things are impossible here. but well, you know that with the charia, womens have absolutely no right ?

What the hell are you taling about, Bill 101 is an example of cultural assimilation within Quebec.

Sharia law would only be applicable as it falls in line with Quebec family law. I doubt the circumstances would be different in Quebec then they are here, in Ontario, where Sharia law is valid. Floggings would be considered assault.

hypotetical exemple.

a girl's father die. the guy dont have any will written, he dont have any other child and his wife is dead. the canadian law give everything to the child. the Sharia law give half to the girl, and the other half to her uncles and cousins. and if the girl decide to convert herself to christianism for exemple, she dont get anything. her heritage is void by the Sharia...

should we let every group of immigrants to have their own law ? every religion apply their law outside their church ? it will be a mess if we let that happen...

Kind of falls in line with the cultural assimilation comment I made.

well, i would say that we need a partial assimilation to make the country work, or else we should have road signalisation in every language spoke even by a tiny group, 30 differents sets of laws, and 12 interprets with every governement worker (cops and firemen for exemple)
 

Said1

Hubba Hubba
Apr 18, 2005
5,336
66
48
51
Das Kapital
Re: RE: Quebec's parlement sa

Cathou said:
Said1 said:
Cathou said:
what the hell are you talking about ? the charia is the islamic law. it's not relate from near or far with the language policy... you know like you can lapidate you wife if she have an affair with another guy, or that you can cut a guy hand if he stole you something...sure thoses things are impossible here. but well, you know that with the charia, womens have absolutely no right ?

What the hell are you taling about, Bill 101 is an example of cultural assimilation within Quebec.

Sharia law would only be applicable as it falls in line with Quebec family law. I doubt the circumstances would be different in Quebec then they are here, in Ontario, where Sharia law is valid. Floggings would be considered assault.

hypotetical exemple.

a girl's father die. the guy dont have any will written, he dont have any other child and his wife is dead. the canadian law give everything to the child. the Sharia law give half to the girl, and the other half to her uncles and cousins. and if the girl decide to convert herself to christianism for exemple, she dont get anything. her heritage is void by the Sharia...

should we let every group of immigrants to have their own law ? every religion apply their law outside their church ? it will be a mess if we let that happen...

Kind of falls in line with the cultural assimilation comment I made.

well, i would say that we need a partial assimilation to make the country work, or else we should have road signalisation in every language spoke even by a tiny group, 30 differents sets of laws, and 12 interprets with every governement worker (cops and firemen for exemple)

Let's get one thing straight, I'm not promoting Sharia law anywhere. It's an acceptable alternative here in Ontraio with resepect to some civil matters and must coincide with provincial law. Sharia law and all it's finery is not fully practiced and the participants are able to take any decisions to regular courts if they are not satisfied with the outcome (although Ihave my doubts that this happens with respect to domestic disputes etc).

I'm not against assimilation either, one can retain their culture without special considerations such as your own courts and the removal of certain Canadian traditions from public schools.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Having read the posts, I can see there are many misunderstandings about Islam. Here is just one example:

It doesn't explicitely give women equality with men (one reason I'm not a Muslim), but to say it gives women no rights whatsoever is way out of line. Women have more rights in Islam than they do in the Gospel (One reason I'm not a Christian)! Were you aware, for instance, that the Gospel itself also requires women to wear the veil? Or that whereas the Gospel allows the father to 'give' his daughter in marriage, the Qur'an requires the daughter's consent as well?

And please, for any Christian or Muslim who reads this, I'm not criticizing your religions at all. From what I've been able to gather, the teachings of both Christianity and Islam were extremely progressive for their respective times in history. Before the founding of Islam, for instance, were you aware that if a father died, his sons could claim each others' mothers and sisters as their own property? Or that a father could kill his wife for giving him a daughter? Or that seven-year-old daughters could be buried alive? Or that when one tribe conquered another, it could slaughter all the men in the vanquished tribe, and keep the women and daughters for themselves? Islam abolished all of these practices. Islam was also the first religion to place explicit limits on the number of wives a man could have. Quite honestly, if I were born at those times in history, I myself would probably have adopted either Christianity or Islam in its respective time. But I certainly don't believe their laws lend well to modern conditions.

That having been said, I'd see no problem with Shari'a being allowed as long as it doesn't conflict with the secular laws as laid out by the body politic, just as is the case in Ontario. The secular laws could therefore keep the Shari'a from getting out of hand, yet allowing the Shari'a could help to better integrate Muslims into the community by making them feel more accepted and acknowledged in society.

One concern I would have, however, is with the fear factor. I'm well aware of non-Muslims in Canada who pretend to be Muslims for their own protection, out of fear of retribution for having aposticized from theri faith. Add to that that some would interpret not accepting Islam when having been born to Muslim parents to also be equal to apostacy. And some would even extend this to anyone who believes in any 'post-Islamic religion' (i.e., a religion which accepts Islam just as Islam accepts Christianity, or Christianity acknowledges Judaism, but is not Muslim itself). Some of these people will wear the veil out of fear, against their will. So obviously such people, in any kind of civil suit, might feel pressured to accept a Shari'a court even if they themselves don't believe in it. From that standpoint, I do believe that before any kind of Shari'a be allowed, we must ensure that such people have a way out should they not want to participate, taking various social and psychological factors into consideration. And again, this is not a criticism of islam, but rather a misunderstanding of it on the part of its own devotees who should choose to politicise it, or turn to fanaticism in its name.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Oh, and as for assimilation, I wouldn't go so far as to call bill 101 assimilation. I don't fully agree with it, and do find it a little too strong, and even contradictory of other laws (such as being required to learn it in school, and then being restricted from using it liberally outside of school). but as far as assimilation is concerned, Bill 101 doesn't apply to private individuals and religious organizations. They are exempt. Only if you are in some public capacity (i.e., government employee, teacher, worker in a company, etc.) does it apply. So it could be fair to call it integration, but assimilation is a little strong.

As an aside, however, it would seem to make sense for the government, just to make the laws more consistent, to make a choice between either Bill 101 or requiring children to learn English with no other language option. I'd probably go for a combination of the two (i.e., give students more language options in middle school, and don't strengthen Bill 101 any more than it already is.
 

bluealberta

Council Member
Apr 19, 2005
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If we are prepared to accept Charia for Muslims, we then cannot deny any immigrants whose original country supports the death penalty. Or immigrants from Iran who have stoning as the penalty for adultery. Do we really want to go into this? No.

If people want to come to Canada, follow Canadian laws. I keep hearing over and over again that immigrants come to Canada because Canada offers better opportunities and is better than the country they left. If this is so, then leave the laws of the old country behind, follow Canadian laws. Otherwise, don't come to Canada.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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bluealberta said:
If we are prepared to accept Charia for Muslims, we then cannot deny any immigrants whose original country supports the death penalty. Or immigrants from Iran who have stoning as the penalty for adultery. Do we really want to go into this? No.

If people want to come to Canada, follow Canadian laws. I keep hearing over and over again that immigrants come to Canada because Canada offers better opportunities and is better than the country they left. If this is so, then leave the laws of the old country behind, follow Canadian laws. Otherwise, don't come to Canada.

I don't see how this issue relates to immigration in any way whatsoever. The issue at hand was Shari'a, not immigrants. I was born in Canada, raised in Canada, and my mother's family traces its roots back 400 years to new France, not to mention that I also have some indian blood. Yet I'd considered adopting Islam at one point in my life myself. I've also personally met Canadian Muslims who were not immigrants. I'm sure you can understand that it would be quite offensive for a Canadian-born Muslim to suddenly be equated with 'immigrant' because he doesn't follow the majority religion. And some Canadian-born Muslims I'd met were just as strongly in favour of Shari'a as any of the immigrant ones were. So please, can you explain to me what relevence immigration has to this topic?
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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bluealberta said:
If we are prepared to accept Charia for Muslims, we then cannot deny any immigrants whose original country supports the death penalty. Or immigrants from Iran who have stoning as the penalty for adultery. Do we really want to go into this? No.

If people want to come to Canada, follow Canadian laws. I keep hearing over and over again that immigrants come to Canada because Canada offers better opportunities and is better than the country they left. If this is so, then leave the laws of the old country behind, follow Canadian laws. Otherwise, don't come to Canada.

I don't see how this issue relates to immigration in any way whatsoever. The issue at hand was Shari'a, not immigrants. I was born in Canada, raised in Canada, and my mother's family traces its roots back 400 years to new France, not to mention that I also have some indian blood. Yet I'd considered adopting Islam at one point in my life myself. I've also personally met Canadian Muslims who were not immigrants. I'm sure you can understand that it would be quite offensive for a Canadian-born Muslim to suddenly be equated with 'immigrant' because he doesn't follow the majority religion. And some Canadian-born Muslims I'd met were just as strongly in favour of Shari'a as any of the immigrant ones were. So please, can you explain to me what relevence immigration has to this topic?
 

bluealberta

Council Member
Apr 19, 2005
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Proud to be in Alberta
Machjo said:
bluealberta said:
If we are prepared to accept Charia for Muslims, we then cannot deny any immigrants whose original country supports the death penalty. Or immigrants from Iran who have stoning as the penalty for adultery. Do we really want to go into this? No.

If people want to come to Canada, follow Canadian laws. I keep hearing over and over again that immigrants come to Canada because Canada offers better opportunities and is better than the country they left. If this is so, then leave the laws of the old country behind, follow Canadian laws. Otherwise, don't come to Canada.

I don't see how this issue relates to immigration in any way whatsoever. The issue at hand was Shari'a, not immigrants. I was born in Canada, raised in Canada, and my mother's family traces its roots back 400 years to new France, not to mention that I also have some indian blood. Yet I'd considered adopting Islam at one point in my life myself. I've also personally met Canadian Muslims who were not immigrants. I'm sure you can understand that it would be quite offensive for a Canadian-born Muslim to suddenly be equated with 'immigrant' because he doesn't follow the majority religion. And some Canadian-born Muslims I'd met were just as strongly in favour of Shari'a as any of the immigrant ones were. So please, can you explain to me what relevence immigration has to this topic?

I think this issue primarily relates to immigrants. However, for your example, why would Canadian born Muslims want laws that differ greatly from Canadian laws? And my argument still holds, would you give the same consideration to Canadian born Iranians, or Canadian born Americans? And what does the "majority religion"have to do with this topic? This was about a certain ethic group using laws outside of Canadian laws. To paraphrase, When In Canada, live by Canadian Laws.