Canada to Heart Patients: Sorry If You Die Before We Can Tre

alienofwar

New Member
Mar 2, 2005
40
0
6
Canada to Heart Patients: Sorry If You Die Before We Can Treat You

NewsMax.com Wires

Monday, March 21, 2005
TORONTO - A letter from the Moncton Hospital to a New Brunswick heart patient in need of an electrocardiogram said the appointment would be in three months. It added: "If the person named on this computer-generated letter is deceased, please accept our sincere apologies."

The patient wasn't dead, according to the doctor who showed the letter to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity. But there are many Canadians who claim the long wait for the test and the frigid formality of the letter are indicative of a health system badly in need of emergency care.
Story Continues Below



Americans who flock to Canada for cheap flu shots often come away impressed at the free and first-class medical care available to Canadians, rich or poor. But tell that to hospital administrators constantly having to cut staff for lack of funds, or to the mother whose teenager was advised she would have to wait up to three years for surgery to repair a torn knee ligament.
"It's like somebody's telling you that you can buy this car, and you've paid for the car, but you can't have it right now," said Jane Pelton. Rather than leave daughter Emily in pain and a knee brace, the Ottawa family opted to pay $3,300 for arthroscopic surgery at a private clinic in Vancouver, with no help from the government.

"Every day we're paying for health care, yet when we go to access it, it's just not there," said Pelton.

The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in taxes each year, partly to fund the health care system. Rates vary from province to province, but Ontario, the most populous, spends roughly 40 percent of every tax dollar on health care, according to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.

The system is going broke, says the federation, which campaigns for tax reform and private enterprise in health care.

It calculates that at present rates, Ontario will be spending 85 percent of its budget on health care by 2035. "We can't afford a state monopoly on health care anymore," says Tasha Kheiriddin, Ontario director of the federation. "We have to examine private alternatives as well."

The federal government and virtually every province acknowledge there's a crisis: a lack of physicians and nurses, state-of-the-art equipment and funding. In Ontario, more than 10,000 nurses and hospital workers are facing layoffs over the next two years unless the provincial government boosts funding, says the Ontario Hospital Association, which represents health care providers in the province.

In 1984 Parliament passed the Canada Health Act, which affirmed the federal government's commitment to provide mostly free health care to all, including the 200,000 immigrants arriving each year. The system is called Medicare (no relation to Medicare in the United States).

Despite the financial burden, Canadians value their Medicare as a marker of egalitarianism and independent identity that sets their country apart from the United States, where some 45 million Americans lack health insurance.

Raisa Deber, a professor of health policy at the University of Toronto, believes Canada's system is one of the world's fairest.

"Canadians are very proud of the fact that if they need care, they will get care," she said. Of the United States, she said: "I don't understand how they got to this worship of markets, to the extent that they're perfectly happy that some people don't get the health care that they need."

Canada does not have fully nationalized health care; its doctors are in private practice and send their bills to the government for reimbursement.

"That doctor doesn't have to worry about how you're going to pay the bill," said Deber. "He knows that his bill will be paid, so there's absolutely nothing to stop any doctor from treating anyone."

Deber acknowledges problems in the system, but believes most Canadians get the care they need. She said the federal government should attach more strings to its annual lump-sum allocations to the provinces so that tax dollars are better spent on preventive care and improvements in working conditions for health-care professionals.

In Alberta, a conservative province where pressure for private clinics and insurance is strong, a nonprofit organization called Friends of Medicare has sprung to the system's defense. It points up the inequities in U.S. health care and calls the Canada's "the most moral and the most cost-effective health care system there is in the world." "Is your sick grandchild more deserving of help than your neighbor's grandchild?" It asks.



Yes, says Dr. Brian Day, if that grandchild needs urgent care and can't get it at a government-funded hospital.

Day, an English-born arthroscopic surgeon, founded Cambie Surgery Center in Vancouver, British Columbia — another province where private surgeries are making inroads. He is also former president of the Arthroscopy Association of North America in Orlando, Fla.

He says he got so frustrated at the long delays to book surgeries at the public hospitals in Vancouver that he built his own private clinic. A leading advocate for reform, he testified last June before the Supreme Court in a landmark appeal against a Quebec ruling upholding limits on private care and insurance.

George Zeliotis told the court he suffered pain and became addicted to painkillers during a yearlong wait for hip replacement surgery, and should have been allowed to pay for faster service. His physician, Dr. Jacques Chaoulli, said his patient's constitutional rights were violated because Quebec couldn't provide the care he needed, but didn't offer him the option of getting it privately.

A ruling on the case is expected any time.

If Zeliotis had been from the United States, China or neighboring Ontario_ anywhere, in fact, except Quebec — he could have bought treatment in a private Quebec clinic. That's one way the system discourages the spread of private medicine — by limiting it to nonresidents. But it can have curious results, says Day.

He tells of a patient who was informed by Ontario officials that since Ontario couldn't help him, they would spend $35,000 to send him to the United States for surgery.

Day said his Vancouver clinic could have done it for $12,000 but the Ontario officials "do not philosophically support sending an individual to a nongovernment clinic in Canada."

Canadians can buy insurance for dental and eye care, physical and chiropractic therapy, long-term nursing and prescriptions, among other services. But according to experts on both sides of the debate, Canada and North Korea are the only countries with laws banning the purchase of insurance for hospitalization or surgery.

Meanwhile, the average wait for surgical or specialist treatment is nearly 18 weeks, up from 9.3 weeks in 1993, according to the Fraser Institute, a right-wing public policy think tank in Vancouver. A Fraser study last year said the average wait for an orthopedic surgeon was more than nine months.

Prime Minister Paul Martin's Liberal government has pledged $33.3 billion in new funding to improve health in all provinces and territories over the next 10 years. But critics aren't impressed.

"It won't make a difference," said Sally C. Pipes, a Canadian who heads the conservative Pacific Research Institute in San Francisco. "They need to break the system down, or open the system up to competition."

Pipes is a big supporter of the Bush administration proposal to allow Americans to divert some of their payroll taxes into medical savings accounts. She claims the two-tiered system feared by Canadian liberals already exists because those with connections jump to the head of the medical queue and those who can afford it can get treated in the United States.

"These are not wealthy people; these are people who are in pain," said Pipes.

Another watershed lawsuit was filed last year against 12 Quebec hospitals on behalf of 10,000 breast-cancer patients in Quebec who had to wait more than eight weeks for radiation therapy during a period dating to October 1997.

One woman went to Turkey for treatment. Another, Johanne Lavoie, was among several sent to the United States. Diagnosed with invasive breast cancer in 1999, she traveled every week with her 5-year-old son to Vermont, a four-hour bus ride.

"It was an inhuman thing to live through," Lavoie told Toronto's Globe and Mail.

"This is the first time someone has decided to attack the source of problems — the waiting list," said Montreal attorney Michel Savonitto, who is representing the cancer victims. "We're lucky to have the system we do in Canada," he told the court. "But if we want to supply proper care and commit to doing it, then we can't do it halfway."

An estimated 4 million of Canada's 33 million people don't have family physicians and more than 1 million are on waiting lists for treatment, according to the Canadian Medical Association. Meanwhile, some 200 physicians head to the United States each year, attracted by lower taxes and better working conditions. Canada has 2.1 physicians per 1,000 people, while Belgium has 3.9, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

The World Health Organization in 2000 ranked France's health system as the best, followed by Italy, Spain, Oman and Australia. Canada came in 30th and the United States 37th.

Alberta Premier Ralph Klein is pushing what he calls "the third way" — a fusion of Canadian Medicare and the system in France and many other nations, where residents can supplement their government-funded health care with private insurance and services.

But some Canadians worry even partial privatization would be damaging.

"My concern is that the private clinics would only serve to further drain the scarce physician resources that we already have," said Dr. Saralaine Johnstone, a 31-year-old family physician in Geraldton, a papermill hamlet in northern Ontario.

"We first need to guarantee that everybody has access to quality health care," she said, "and we just don't have that."

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/3/21/101350.shtml
 

mrmom2

Senate Member
Mar 8, 2005
5,380
6
38
Kamloops BC
RE: Canada to Heart Patients: Sorry If You Die Before We Can

Notice to US poor folk you don't have medical insurance you don't get treatment ! :roll:
 

alienofwar

New Member
Mar 2, 2005
40
0
6
RE: Canada to Heart Patients: Sorry If You Die Before We Can

Actually contrary to your misconception of the U.S, poor people in here have medicare and can't be refused treatment if it's life and death. Also, based on polls, only 16% of Americans in the last election though healthcare was a priority as opposed to about 49% of Canadians in their last election which thought healthcare was top priority. I can provide sources upon request if you need.

Goes to show.
 

Walrus

Nominee Member
Mar 20, 2005
67
0
6
Victoria
Re: RE: Canada to Heart Patients: Sorry If You Die Before We

alienofwar said:
Actually contrary to your misconception of the U.S, poor people in here have medicare and can't be refused treatment if it's life and death. Also, based on polls, only 16% of Americans in the last election though healthcare was a priority as opposed to about 49% of Canadians in their last election which thought healthcare was top priority. I can provide sources upon request if you need.

Goes to show.

Canadians who are poor also can't be refused medical care if it's life or death. The big difference is that once the life and death emergency is over the Canadian can still get treatment for his illness (even if he does have to wait) while the American can only get it if he can afford to.

This story about the waiting lines is another example of those who favour implementing an American style for profit system using scare tactics to try to convince us to change our system (or else by Americans who want to scare their citizens into retaining their system). The truth of the matter is that regardless of whether or not we have universal health care you won't have to wait if you can afford to find treatment someplace else, but at least everyone has a chance to get treatment. The idea behind universal health care is that everyone is entitled to it regardless of their ability to pay.
 

cub1c

Electoral Member
Mar 22, 2005
302
0
16
Québec, Montréal
Re: RE: Canada to Heart Patients: Sorry If You Die Before We

alienofwar said:
Also, based on polls, only 16% of Americans in the last election though healthcare was a priority as opposed to about 49% of Canadians in their last election which thought healthcare was top priority. I can provide sources upon request if you need.

Yes 49% is good, I wonder why it's not more between 80-90.

Walrus said:
The truth of the matter is that regardless of whether or not we have universal health care you won't have to wait if you can afford to find treatment someplace else, but at least everyone has a chance to get treatment.

Ok you're talking about 2-speed medical care, which is by definition half-way bad. The public health care system should, or at least having as a goal, to provide exactly, or even better services to the population as the private system. Believe me, we have the money to put in that system for our people (not new money!). Raise that 49% number to 80%, and the money is there!!

Walrus said:
The idea behind universal health care is that everyone is entitled to it regardless of their ability to pay.

Yes, it is a great.

But the simple facts that private sector, not only somtimes directly compete with the public sector, but their lobbying is already highly effective at dictating government actions. You have to admit that it is a bit ironic to consider begin using two-way system when it is already there.

And let's not talk about the pharmaceutical lobbying which is now eating everyone's money. Look out in about 10 years, Gomery Comission on Pharmaceutical Scandal. I'll be watching it!

That said, I'm not against a deal with the devil. I think there is lots of less vicious ways to co-operate. But people should know that our beautiful health care system is already changing, and that non-action will eventualy lead to a system like our neighbors.
 

crit13

Electoral Member
Mar 28, 2005
301
4
18
Whitby, Ontario
Re: Canada to Heart Patients: Sorry If You Die Before We Can

Our Canadian healthcare system is on the verge of collapsing and we're all patting ourselves on the back for our wonderful healthcare system.

I took my 14 month old daughter to the "emergency" section of the hospital because she was having problems breathing. The last time I checked, breathing was an important process in staying alive. It took 9 HOURS for a doctor to even look at her and then he sent us for X-rays which took another 2 hours.

I was terrified that she was going to die in my arms that night.

Excuse me for not sharing in your ignorance of the Canadian healthcare system.

I could have driven to the US and got treatment for her before a Canadian doctor would even acknowledge her existance.

By the way, our healthcare system is NOT free. We pay for it by being the highest taxed industrialized country on the planet.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
RE: Canada to Heart Patie

Wow...a complete misrepresentation of the facts. This isn't the Bill O'Reilly show, Crit...or even one of Stevie Harper speeches.
 

Walrus

Nominee Member
Mar 20, 2005
67
0
6
Victoria
Re: Canada to Heart Patients: Sorry If You Die Before We Can

crit13 said:
Our Canadian healthcare system is on the verge of collapsing and we're all patting ourselves on the back for our wonderful healthcare system.

I took my 14 month old daughter to the "emergency" section of the hospital because she was having problems breathing. The last time I checked, breathing was an important process in staying alive. It took 9 HOURS for a doctor to even look at her and then he sent us for X-rays which took another 2 hours.

I was terrified that she was going to die in my arms that night.

Excuse me for not sharing in your ignorance of the Canadian healthcare system.

I could have driven to the US and got treatment for her before a Canadian doctor would even acknowledge her existance.

By the way, our healthcare system is NOT free. We pay for it by being the highest taxed industrialized country on the planet.

I don't say that our health care systme doesn't need fixing, but comparing it to the American model is totally wrong.

First, why didn't you take your child to the States to get treated if you thought it was so important and life-threatening? I would venture to say that you didn't want to be faced with the high bill afterwards - am I right or is there some other reason you can give?

Second, a big misperception is that for an emergency your child would have recieved prompt service in the US. This is simply not true, studies of the various health care systems have shown that their emergency wards are subjected to the same waiting periods as ours - emergency wards are always under severe strain.

Third, nothing in this life is free, we pay for it in some way or another - our taxe rate is no where near the highest in the industrial world we are number 12 at 38.5% of our GDP. Sweden is number 1 at 54.2% of their GDP. By the way, these taxes also support education for your child which I have to pay even though I have no children - you're welcome.
 

crit13

Electoral Member
Mar 28, 2005
301
4
18
Whitby, Ontario
Re: Canada to Heart Patients: Sorry If You Die Before We Can

Wow...a complete misrepresentation of the facts. This isn't the Bill O'Reilly show, Crit...or even one of Stevie Harper speeches.

If that is the reponse that I get from fearing from my daughters life than you are no better than the cockroach I stepped on last week.

First, why didn't you take your child to the States to get treated if you thought it was so important and life-threatening? I would venture to say that you didn't want to be faced with the high bill afterwards - am I right or is there some other reason you can give?

It would have been a 3 hour drive and the nurse kept telling us that he would see her soon. That's why I didn't drive. If I knew it would have taken 11 hours, I WOULD have driven to the States and paid whatever they asked of me. How do you explain the thousands of Canadians that go to the States for treatment. Is it beacause our healthcare system is better? Get a clue.

Second, a big misperception is that for an emergency your child would have recieved prompt service in the US. This is simply not true, studies of the various health care systems have shown that their emergency wards are subjected to the same waiting periods as ours - emergency wards are always under severe strain.

Public hospitals have no where near the waiting times we have. Plus, they have private clinics fof those that wish to pay for service and avoid the waiting times. In Canada, we have NO choice.
Third, nothing in this life is free, we pay for it in some way or another - our taxe rate is no where near the highest in the industrial world we are number 12 at 38.5% of our GDP. Sweden is number 1 at 54.2% of their GDP. By the way, these taxes also support education for your child which I have to pay even though I have no children - you're welcome.

Third, nothing in this life is free, we pay for it in some way or another - our taxe rate is no where near the highest in the industrial world we are number 12 at 38.5% of our GDP. Sweden is number 1 at 54.2% of their GDP. By the way, these taxes also support education for your child which I have to pay even though I have no children - you're welcome.

Don't use your smoke and mirror numbers on me. Your using a median income tax rate. That doesn't account for GST, PST, gas tax, tax on tax (surtax) and my newly found favorite the health tax in Ontario. There are hundreds more but you get my point. Our real tax rate is over 55%.

By the way, these taxes also support education for your child which I have to pay even though I have no children - you're welcome.

I have been employed and paying taxes for 20 years and my daughter is too young to be in school. It's best that you remain childless, because both Canada and the world would appreciate that your gene pool stops with you.
 

crit13

Electoral Member
Mar 28, 2005
301
4
18
Whitby, Ontario
Re: Canada to Heart Patients: Sorry If You Die Before We Can

Our tax rate isn't 55%. That's a smoke and mirrors number if there ever was one.

Do you even know the difference between income tax and total tax.

Our median income tax rate is 38.5%. Is that the only tax "you" pay?
We also pay:
Goods and Services Tax 7%
Provincial Sales Tax 8%
Health Tax
Gas Tax (more than 50% of the cost of gas)
Property Tax
Buy a car (tire tax, environmental tax, A/C tax etc)

Unless your a thief and steal all your goods, even you Rev pay a lot more than 38% tax. Unless your on welfare, but that's another story.
 

MMMike

Council Member
Mar 21, 2005
1,410
1
38
Toronto
RE: Canada to Heart Patients: Sorry If You Die Before We Can

Why are we fixated on our way vs. their way (Canada vs. U.S.) in terms of healthcare systems. There are better models out there, MOST of which have a parallel private system, or increased private delivery of care. Let's have a real discussion about real reform before it is too late! How anyone can look at our system with it's (sometimes) life-threatening waiting times and think that it is working. Cost increases are outpacing GDP growth by a wide margin.... healthcare is becoming the black hole on the books of both the federal and provincial governments.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
Re: Canada to Heart Patients: Sorry If You Die Before We Can

Reverend Blair said:
Wow...a complete misrepresentation of the facts. This isn't the Bill O'Reilly show, Crit...or even one of Stevie Harper speeches.

crit13 said:
If that is the reponse that I get from fearing from my daughters life than you are no better than the cockroach I stepped on last week.


No shit Rev, you really said that….

***Jay saw fit type in a brutal, slanderous lie. I removed it.**

Reverend Blair said:
Our tax rate isn't 55%. That's a smoke and mirrors number if there ever was one.


The smoke and mirrors is when the NDP says their not communists.


You know full well we are paying far too much in taxes, but you will only listen if your god Jacky Poo says so, and we all know he will never think we are paying too much in taxes.
 

zenfisher

House Member
Sep 12, 2004
2,829
0
36
Seattle
RE: Canada to Heart Patients: Sorry If You Die Before We Can

Crit you may or may not have waited as long down here, but the likelyhood is your daughter would have been treated by a nurse, not a doctor.

Both systems are in dire need of an overhaul. We need to start by decreasing the bueracracy in bith systems. That's where the money is to fix the problems.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
Re: Canada to Heart Patients: Sorry If You Die Before We Can

Jay said:
Reverend Blair said:
Wow...a complete misrepresentation of the facts. This isn't the Bill O'Reilly show, Crit...or even one of Stevie Harper speeches.

crit13 said:
If that is the reponse that I get from fearing from my daughters life than you are no better than the cockroach I stepped on last week.


No shit Rev, you really said that….

***Jay saw fit type in a brutal, slanderous lie. I removed it.**

Reverend Blair said:
Our tax rate isn't 55%. That's a smoke and mirrors number if there ever was one.


The smoke and mirrors is when the NDP says their not communists.


You know full well we are paying far too much in taxes, but you will only listen if your god Jacky Poo says so, and we all know he will never think we are paying too much in taxes.


The only brutal slanderous lie here Rev is your slander against me by accusing me of brutally slandering and lying. You’re just pissed because someone called you on being an ass and pointed out your comment to crit in this thread was evil. You don't get to sit in the sand box and throw sand in ppl eyes Rev without someone doing something about it. BTW deleting my posts doesn’t make it all better, it makes it worse.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
RE: Canada to Heart Patie

You accused me of being willing to let somebody's two year old daughter die, Jay. I've had about enough of your attacks and the immature way you get all excited when you think you've found an ally.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
Re: Canada to Heart Patients: Sorry If You Die Before We Can

BS, I don't want or need allies Rev. I'm a one man army. I've told you that before.

I accused you of not giving a shit if she lived or died, as your post demonstrated a huge lack of humanity. If you make statements like that again, I will post similar statements, and you will delete them, I’m sure. But YOU deleted my post; the onus is on you to prove otherwise.

Reverend Blair said:
I've had about enough of your attacks and the immature way you get all excited when you think you've found an ally.


:roll: get a grip on it Rev.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
Re: Canada to Heart Patients: Sorry If You Die Before We Can

Jay, you and a couple of others around here have a really bad habit of trying to turn every thread personal. I never said a damned thing about his daughter.

Now stop it.