The Moral Case for Open Borders.

[Machjo]

Moral case for open borders | Open Borders: The Case

I found this article to be interesting. It looks at it from Libertarian, Utilitarian and other standpoints.

A Christian case is presented here:

Open Borders, Christianity, and the Enlightenment | Open Borders: The Case

I don't agree with all of the arguments here though, at least not in the details, but I agree with its direction none-the-less.

 

[EagleSmack]

Open them Wide baby!

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

OK, here's a notion. We open the borders, and all the Muzzies and Meskins come swarming in. Then, just as they're all getting nice and comfy, we all go to Mexico and Arabia. Then we'll have all the oil.

 

[coldstream]

Prescription for chaos.

We might be in the last gasps of the Enlightenment.. which btw was ANYTHING but Christian in its philosophical roots.. which was dominated by Deists or outright Atheists. It has now run out of gas.. and world is looking to its civilizational roots to reboot itself. Those are of faith based institutions, constitutions and of nation states.

A cohesive philosophical, political, scientific, artistic order has emerged every 250 years like clockwork since the West was formed in 500 A.D. with the collapse of the Western Roman Empire which signified the end of Greco Roman Civilization. It's been 250 years since the Enlightenment descended on us.. and it is exhausted and corrupt in all those expressions.. look around you.

 

[Machjo]

Prescription for chaos.

We might be in the last gasps of the Enlightenment.. which btw was ANYTHING but Christian in its philosophical roots.. which was dominated by Deists or outright Atheists. It has now run out of gas.. and world is looking to its civilizational roots to reboot itself. Those are of faith based institutions, constitutions and of nation states.

A cohesive philosophical, political, scientific, artistic order has emerged every 250 years like clockwork since the West was formed in 500 A.D. with the collapse of the Western Roman Empire which signified the end of Greco Roman Civilization. It's been 250 years since the Enlightenment descended on us.. and it is exhausted and corrupt in all those expressions.. look around you.

Of course the second link makes a distinction between Christian and enlightenment, but still argues they agree on the point of open borders. The interesting argument I found was that it would probably spread the Christian Faith. I'm not sure about that, but it would most certainly promote freedom of religion at the very least.

One would think a Christian would support that.

 

[coldstream]

Of course the second link makes a distinction between Christian and enlightenment, but still argues they agree on the point of open borders. The interesting argument I found was that it would probably spread the Christian Faith. I'm not sure about that, but it would most certainly promote freedom of religion at the very least.

One would think a Christian would support that.

You've got to be truly naive to think that Islam cares anything about Freedom of Religion.. or an open market place for reasoned argument and proselytization of faith. Islam declared war of Christianity at it inception.. and has never been at peace with it.

 

[EagleSmack]

What if a religion hasn't really reached the enlightenment stage and has decades (at least) to go?

 

[coldstream]

What if a religion hasn't really reached the enlightenment stage and has decades (at least) to go?

The seed of a thornbush will never sprout an oak.. in any number of its generations.

 

[EagleSmack]

The seed of a thornbush will never sprout an oak.. in any number of its generations.

Judaism and Christianity ultimately did. Although I believe it was naive to state Islam is decades from enlightenment. It could take hundreds of years... or thousands.

 

[Machjo]

You've got to be truly naive to think that Islam cares anything about Freedom of Religion.. or an open market place for reasoned argument and proselytization of faith. Islam declared war of Christianity at it inception.. and has never been at peace with it.

So are you saying that no person who was raised Muslim ever embraced the Christian faith?

Judaism and Christianity ultimately did. Although I believe it was naive to state Islam is decades from enlightenment. It could take hundreds of years... or thousands.

And let's not confuse a religion with a person. Whatever one believes about Islam, are we pretending that no person who is raised Muslim could not turn to another religion?

 

[EagleSmack]

And let's not confuse a religion with a person. Whatever one believes about Islam, are we pretending that no person who is raised Muslim could not turn to another religion?

They most certainly can and have. Of course at their own peril.

 

[Machjo]

They most certainly can and have. Of course at their own peril.

But with open borders, non-Muslims could more easily leave their state and so express their true beliefs more openly.

More importantly, this could allow more Muslims to interact with non-Muslims, develop friendships with them, and so become more open. How are they supposed to do that when we lock them up in their religious discriminatory states through various immigration laws?

Let's not forget that Iran itself is always struggling with the growth of the Baha'i Faith for example. Wouldn't open borders allow even more inter-Faith relations?

 

[EagleSmack]

But with open borders, non-Muslims could more easily leave their state and so express their true beliefs more openly.

That is true.

More importantly, this could allow more Muslims to interact with non-Muslims, develop friendships with them, and so become more open.

That is also true. But then look at the Boston Bombers. The youngest one grew up here in the US, went to it's schools, played on sports teams, had many friends, and in fact was raised in one of the most liberal cities in the US. Then he was radicalized.

How are they supposed to do that when we lock them up in their religious discriminatory states through various immigration laws?

I am not seeing much of an assimilation and if anything it is going the opposite direction.

Let's not forget that Iran itself is always struggling with the growth of the Baha'i Faith for example. Wouldn't open borders allow even more inter-Faith relations?

Iran has a lock. Any faith based or political struggle is minuscule and nothing the Revolutionary Guard can't handle... as they have shown.

 

[Machjo]

Muslims who don't want to mingle could just stay in their own states.

 

[EagleSmack]

Muslims who don't want to mingle could just stay in their own states.

How is that working out?

 

[JamesBondo]

Moral case for open borders | Open Borders: The Case

I found this article to be interesting. It looks at it from Libertarian, Utilitarian and other standpoints.

A Christian case is presented here:

Open Borders, Christianity, and the Enlightenment | Open Borders: The Case

I don't agree with all of the arguments here though, at least not in the details, but I agree with its direction none-the-less.

I have no problem with its direction provided that principles of proportionality are observed. You can't create a free for all until the country is ready for it. So I suggest that everyone starts working 100 hrs per week so our taxes can support an explosive demand in schools, hospitals, law enforcement, etc.

 

[Mowich]

I vote no to open borders. It is a recipe for chaos.

 

[Machjo]

I have no problem with its direction provided that principles of proportionality are observed. You can't create a free for all until the country is ready for it. So I suggest that everyone starts working 100 hrs per week so our taxes can support an explosive demand in schools, hospitals, law enforcement, etc.

You don't trust the free market, do you. If that happened, people wouldn't want to come to Canada anymore, right?

In a sense, it would be a great leveller, not to mention that it would quickly kill the NDP unless the NDP changes its tune real fast. The Libertarian Party woudl gain many votes from people who don't want all their taxes supporting the influx. So ironically, it would be the great leveller and the great market liberalizer.

 

[JamesBondo]

Geez, most people promise to support their spouse if they have to. But you seem obsessed about putting her to work. Why is that?

 

[Machjo]

Geez, most people promise to support their spouse if they have to. But you seem obsessed about putting her to work. Why is that?

Our case was settled long ago., but it was still a hassle. She wanted to work long before she finally could. But if we had to go through that, I'm sure many others will go through the same.