Trudeau to resurrect Court Challenges Program -- here's why you should care

B00Mer

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Sep 6, 2008
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Trudeau to resurrect Court Challenges Program -- here's why you should care

Yesterday, I spoke with Ian Brodie, former Chief of Staff to Prime Minister Harper from 2006 to 2008, about where the conservative movement is now and what it needs to do to grow.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3lrDRY6QDY

In part two of the interview, we discuss Trudeau's promise to resurrect the Court Challenges Program, a vehicle that provided left-wing groups with the funding (i.e. taxpayer money) they needed to sue the government and win. This is how many progressive causes were advanced through the courts. Not surprisingly, this program had its origins with Trudeau 1, was cut by Harper, but is being brought back by Trudeau 2.

Listen in on my interview with Ian for a history lesson that could help you be part of educating others about why this is a bad idea.

source: Trudeau to resurrect Court Challenges Program -- here's why you should care - The Rebel
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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To be fair, if you cut funding to court challenges, you should also eliminate the ability of the Government to wield the appeal process as a weapon of vengeance against an accused in whose favour a court rules. After all, it's hardly fair that the accused has to pay out of pocket for the court challenge while the Government can appeal and appeal and appeal at the taxpayers' expense as a harassment tool as was done in the case of the niqab controversy.
 

tay

Hall of Fame Member
May 20, 2012
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To be fair, if you cut funding to court challenges, you should also eliminate the ability of the Government to wield the appeal process as a weapon of vengeance against an accused in whose favour a court rules. After all, it's hardly fair that the accused has to pay out of pocket for the court challenge while the Government can appeal and appeal and appeal at the taxpayers' expense as a harassment tool as was done in the case of the niqab controversy.

The most lucid and literate response to this Post I could imagine.

And of course the TPP cuts those challenges and court cases down to a secret tribunals....

Well done Machjo............



 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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If this is the caliber of criticism we can expect from the Conservative opposition then it's going to be sunny ways for at least a decade.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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The most lucid and literate response to this Post I could imagine.

And of course the TPP cuts those challenges and court cases down to a secret tribunals....

Well done Machjo............




I was speaking from personal experience.

The CBSA charged a tourist with working illegally in Canada and tried to deport her without even giving her the chance to defend herself.

Knowing her innocence, I'd found her a lawyer so she got a hearing at the IRB. Now remember that unlike criminal charges which guarantee the right to be presumed innocent putting the onus on the prosecution to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt, an IRB hearing guarantees only the right to the rule of the balance of probabilities whereby the accuser needs only prove that it is more probable that the accused is guilty than that he isn't based on the available evidence. Such a low standard of proof therefore makes it far more shameful for the CBSA if the accused is found not guilty by such a standard since unlike the presumption of innocence whereby a person could be found not guilty in spite of proof showing that he is probably guilty but just not beyond reasonable doubt, an IRB ruling in the accused's favour can happen only if the judge concludes that it is more probable that the accused is not guilty than that he is!

I was present to hear the judge's judgement and it was pretty harsh towards the CBSA. I even have a copy of the transcript. He had concluded that:

1. the CBSA did not make sufficient effort to collect evidence, the only 'evidence' presented being the statements of two police officers (one of whose did not even address the matter of the accused) and a CBSA officer's statements, many of which were later proved false!

2. The CBSA interviewing officer misinterpreted the accused's statements during the interview which resulted in recording false statements that the accused had later proved to be false at the bond hearing.

3. The CBSA's charges were too dependent on guilt by association and racial profiling.

4. When the accused's lawyer requested that the CBSA obtain detailed witness statements from all available witnesses who had been identified in the police statements as well as invite the arresting officer to defend his statement and the CBSA officer to explain how the errors in her statement occurred, why she never called me when provided my name and number, and how her misinterpretation of the interview might have affected her decision to have the accused deported, the CBSA's lawyer resisted on all counts, defending the statements of anonymous police officers (whose names were crossed out from the copy provided to us) and the erroneous statements of the CBSA officer as sufficient.

Worse yet, though the judge never mentioned this, the accused and I suspect that the CBSA probably did collect witness statements but suppressed them because they supported her claims. After all, that would have been the easiest way to prove her guilt and the CBSA obviously intended to do just that.

Even the IRB interpreter had confided to the us during a break that she was shocked at the lack of evidence and the confused logic that the CBSA's lawyer was presenting at the hearing!

The judge naturally ruled in the accused's favour. He had also added that while the CBSA could appeal, he doubted that it would given that she was a tourist in Canada and would have to either leave the country or change her status within a few months anyway. He'd signed his judgement and given each of us a copy saying that all the accused had to do the next day was to show that paper to the CBSA to obtain her passport and the bond money. The CBSA refused for a week to do so until it had received a warning letter from the acquitted's lawyer stating that whoever refuses to return her her passport the next day when she picks it up would face legal concequences reminding them that to refuse to return the passport was illegal.

The CBSA did return it the next day, but it never should have come down to that.

To our shock and dismay, the CBSA also intended to appeal the IRB ruling.

It was shocking on two counts:

1. The appeal thus required her to either remain in Canada or return to Canada for the appeal hearing or face an arrest warrant should she not appear for the appeal for the purpose of determining whether to remove her from Canada, and

2. Had the CBSA so wanted to prove the acquitted's guilt, why had it actively resisted the presentation of evidence (which we have reason to believe it had in its possession) at the first admissibility hearing?

When I'd pointed out how vexatious it was for the CBSA to force her to either remain in Canada or return to Canada for an appeal hearing to determine whether to remove her from Canada (especially after the CBSA itself had resisted the presentation of evidence and witnesses at the first hearing), the CBSA officer (the same one who'd botched the interview on the day of the acquitted's arrest) said that she did not want the acquitted to leave Canada of her own free will but to be removed from Canada forcefullly. That was her explanation of why she was illegally refusing to return the passport to avoid a flight risk. The acquitted had obtained her passport two days later.

Even the acquitted's lawyer said that the appeal made no sense, that the judgement in the acquitted's favour was so solid that there is just no way the CBSA could possibly win the appeal.

She'd speculated that it could be out of desperation to fight a setting of precedent whereby the CBSA would have to actually present proof to win a case next time, but that even that made no sense since no judge would support that. When we mentioned that we suspected that it was just a vexatious appeal, her lawyer actually said that given the CBSA's chances of winning the appeal, that was probably what it was.

This is a perfect example of the CBSA wielding the appeal process as a weapon of vengeance at taxpayers' expense for daring to challenge its power.

In such a case, especially when the accused wins not based on the presumption of innocence but on a balance of probabilities and the CBSA itself resists the presentation of witness statenents, and when the rationale of the appeal is as ludicrous as to force her to remain or return to Canada to determine whether to remove her from Canada, the CBSA should simply not be allowed to appeal in such cases since the intent is obviously vexatious with intent to harass the acquitted.

To be honest, I'd like to know how much all of this cost taxpayers all because the CBSA was too lazy to collect a bit of evidence beyond a Chinese face and then took personal offense at having its power challenged.

If this is the caliber of criticism we can expect from the Conservative opposition then it's going to be sunny ways for at least a decade.

Don't kid yourself. If you had a referendum asking whether a police officer could ever err and whether we should remove the presumption of innocence from the Constitution, probably half of Canadians would vote that a police officer is incapable of blackmail, racial profiling, finding guilt by assiciation, or any other form of corruption, and that a police statement should be all the proof a court should need to find a person guilty, and that only the guilty benefit from the presumption of innocence.
The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is a significantly flawed document compared to the UDHR, but under the present circumstances, it's better than nothing and so just as indigenous Canadians defend the Indian Act as better than replacing it with nothing at all, so I would defend the CCRF over replacing it with nothing at all.

Sometimes even a severely flawed text is better than none at all.
 
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relic

Council Member
Nov 29, 2009
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Yeah, but" if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about". Only a moron would believe that, or someone that has a world as narrow as their mind.
 

DaSleeper

Trolling Hypocrites
May 27, 2007
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If this is the caliber of criticism we can expect from the Conservative opposition then it's going to be sunny ways for at least a decade.
Four years man.....Four frigging long years.....no more
One year for the shine to dull on the pony, one year for the dummies that voted him in to wake up, then two more for them to get totally fed up and be ready for "anybody" as a replacement...........
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Yeah, but" if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about". Only a moron would believe that, or someone that has a world as narrow as their mind.

Here's something to think about. My parents, sister and many friends have never seen me at work. They can can only take me at my word that I do what I claim to do.

If I operated an illegal drug deg, gambling den or bawdy house, they'd be none the wiser (except for the fact that I'd be filthy rich I suppose?). Yet even then, some people are blessed enough to obtain significant wealth by completely moral neans!

Now imagine that I should invite a friend to my home for luncb and little does he know that I engage in illegal activities upstairs. You might say that it's his fault for associating with a criminal like myself if he should ever get cough up in a police raid at my home. But let's be honest, if Russell Williams could fool the Queen and a tough-on-crime Prime Minister to pilot their aircraft, top-ranking military superior officers to promote him and give him top secret clearance, his colleagues to trust him, his subordinates to obey his orders, his friends (including his closest), his family (including his wife), the media, and a police officer who never bothered checking back at his home because of who he was, then how much more could I fool my friends and family to trust me.

When I consider how much my friends and family know about me beyond my unproven and uncorroborated claims that they must just accept at face value, they really don't know much about me.

Based on that, we can conclude that it is quite possible for an innocent man to find himself in a friend's home in which criminal activity could be going on in a room just above his head and be none the wiser.

Consider how much you know about your friends' and family's proven activities beyond their claims when you are not preaent. We really do know little about each other in that respect and that is why courts reject the notion of guilt by association.
 

TenPenny

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Jun 9, 2004
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"the Court Challenges Program, a vehicle that provided left-wing groups with the funding (i.e. taxpayer money) they needed to sue the government and win."


So, only left-wing groups were allowed to get funding?
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
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"the Court Challenges Program, a vehicle that provided left-wing groups with the funding (i.e. taxpayer money) they needed to sue the government and win."


So, only left-wing groups were allowed to get funding?

I believe the court challenges program was a waste of money but to be fair, if the Government itself can find its own appeals process, then we should fund this program too.

A better option though would be to not fund this but also defund Government appeals. The Government should get one shot at proving a person guilty and that should be it, at least in cases where the Government made the accusation and needed only sufficient evidence to prove a balance of probabilities (which should be easy to win if the person is guilty).