Should working or studying in Canada without a visa be a criminal offence?

Machjo

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Should working or studying in Canada without a visa be a criminal offence?

Right now, working or studying in Canada without a visa is not considered to be a criminal offence. It merely involves deporting a person and preventing him from returning to Canada for a year. Not making it a criminal offence has two drawbacks:

1. The punishment is not severe enough to serve as an effective deterrant and worse yet

2. Since the fundamental human rights of foreign nationals who are detained for deportation to protection from arbitrary arrest and detention, to the presumption of innocence, and to a fair trial are not protected, many innocents likely get deported too.

To make it a criminal offence with one year of imprisonment followed by deportation would:

1. Serve as an effective deterrant to working or studying in Canada without authorization, and more importantly

2. Protect the fundamental human rights of the accused since Charter rights would then apply to them, and in so doing protect Canada's reputation as a country that respects due process.
 
W

Wagner

Time Out
Sep 16, 2015
12
0
1
Your ancestors did exactly the same thing. Came to Canada to work without a visa and search for a new and better life. Why are today's immigrants any different? Why should they be penalized for the same damn thing your great grandparents did? At the very worst they can be fined and made to register. The fine should be affordable yet meaningful... maybe $3,000
 
Machjo

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
darkbeaver said:
As a Canadian I object to this suggestion.
Click to expand...


Or instead of a year, how about a week or even a day (either of which which would certainly be time served by the time the judge makes his decision anyway). Or we make deportation for a year the punishment as is now the case, but classify the offence as criminal rather than non-criminal so as to protect the accused Charter rights to protection from arbitrary detention, the right to the presumption of innocence, and the right to a fair trial.

The point is that right now, since working in Canada without authorization is not considered a criminal offence, the Charter right to protection from arbitrary detention, the right to the presumption of innocence, and the right to a fair trial don't apply, meaning that a foreign national can be arrested and detained for deportation for a year on mere suspicion. In one case the CBSA had deported an Australian man who was going to help his Canadian girlfriend build her patio because he did not have a work visa! CBSA agents are not the brightest bulbs in the house to be made judge, jury and executioner in such cases, and that hurts Canada's international image as a defender of fundamental human rights.
 
darkbeaver

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
It was only an image, it may never have been true except in a very brief period, it was smothered in infancy, I don't expect it back without great blood spilling in global war, even then the free will have to win. Every nation has it's illustrious self image, very few are remotly associated with reality. What's the point of preserving a national fabrication?
 
Machjo

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Wagner said:
Your ancestors did exactly the same thing. Came to Canada to work without a visa and search for a new and better life. Why are today's immigrants any different? Why should they be penalized for the same damn thing your great grandparents did? At the very worst they can be fined and made to register. The fine should be affordable yet meaningful... maybe $3,000
Click to expand...


No, they don't even have the option to pay a fine. The rules are clear: deportation for a year. And the CBSA can detain them until an outbound flight to their country of origin becomes available. This means that in the summer months they can be detained for weeks before being deported.

Now though I have a problem with many points in this, my absolute biggest is with the power to detain without due proces. People have been detained for deportation without due process, on mere suspicion, in one case because the CBSA considered helping to build a girlfriend's patio to be working in Canada without a visa! In another that I am aware of, the CBSA officer had included comments in her official statement that were later proven to have been false at trial! But the only reason it had gone to trial was because her fiancé got her a lawyer. She was not even informed of her Charter right to one because it was technically not a Charter right since it was not a criminal offence.

As strange as it sounds, a person can be detained for a non-criminal offence yet has no recourse since, if it's not a criminal offence, there is no right to due process!

Anyone who is detained should have a right to due process regardless of whether it's a criminal offence, and if the only way to guarantee this right is to make it a criminal offence, then let's make it so.
 
Machjo

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
taxslave said:
Immediate deportation with no chance of ever returning. Putting them in jail here only costs us money.
Click to expand...

Even if it's only because he helped his Canadian girlfriend build a patio without a valid work visa? Even if she might not have done what she was accused of but is detained on mere presumption of guilt?

Without getting into the details, a person close to me has had to deal with the CBSA recently. I was surprised to read part of the official statement that I knew to be false!
 
gerryh

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
295
83
You really don't think through what you suggest, do you. A criminal record would mean that they would be inadmissible to Canada forever, not just one year like it is now. So I gather that you want to ban anyone that works or goes to school in Canada without the appropriate visa, correct?
 
Machjo

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
gerryh said:
You really don't think through what you suggest, do you. A criminal record would mean that they would be inadmissible to Canada forever, not just one year like it is now. So I gather that you want to ban anyone that works or goes to school in Canada without the appropriate visa, correct?
Click to expand...

If making it a criminal offence can better protect the innocent from being arbitrarily arrested and deported on mere suspicion as is now the case, yes. Do you have something against better protection against arbitrary arrest and detention? Do you have something against the presumption of innocence?

Though such abuses are the fault of front-line police officers and CBSA agents first and foremost, those who work or study illegally contribute to the problem to the extent that after arresting enough people for a legitimate violation, the police and CBSA start lazily presuming suspects to be guilty over time out of habit.

Brit who helped Canadian girlfriend with DIY ruled to be doing local out of a job | Daily Mail Online

The link above is a direct consequence of foreign nationals not being protected by th Charter. And that us just what is reported.
 
EagleSmack

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
Machjo said:
Brit who helped Canadian girlfriend with DIY ruled to be doing local out of a job | Daily Mail Online

The link above is a direct consequence of foreign nationals not being protected by th Charter. And that us just what is reported.
Click to expand...

Are you KIDDING! A photo of of him doing repairs in his girlfriend's pad is getting him deported!

This proves beyond ANY reasonable doubt. Canada is Ultra-Conservative regardless of what anyone says. Far more conservative than the US.

Your immigration laws are a Tea Party Member's wet dream.
 
DaSleeper

DaSleeper

Trolling Hypocrites
May 27, 2007
33,676
1,665
113
Northern Ontario,
Quebec is even worse, Even if you do a job such as rewiring a light fixture for a family member outside your own home and you don't have a tradesman ticket.......you pay a fine.....that's union for you...
 
EagleSmack

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
DaSleeper said:
Quebec is even worse, Even if you do a job such as rewiring a light fixture for a family member outside your own home and you don't have a tradesman ticket.......you pay a fine.....that's union for you...
Click to expand...

The funny part was that he was British and is being tossed. The queen has little control over her commonwealth it would seem.

BL has yet to comment on this.
 
petros

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
109,288
11,381
113
Low Earth Orbit
EagleSmack said:
Are you KIDDING! A photo of of him doing repairs in his girlfriend's pad is getting him deported!

This proves beyond ANY reasonable doubt. Canada is Ultra-Conservative regardless of what anyone says. Far more conservative than the US.

Your immigration laws are a Tea Party Member's wet dream.
Click to expand...

America has the same laws. Try going into the US from here with a tool box, coveralls, gloves and boots in your vehicle if you are a man who prepares for changing a dead rad hose or tire on the roadside.
 
Machjo

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
EagleSmack said:
Are you KIDDING! A photo of of him doing repairs in his girlfriend's pad is getting him deported!

This proves beyond ANY reasonable doubt. Canada is Ultra-Conservative regardless of what anyone says. Far more conservative than the US.

Your immigration laws are a Tea Party Member's wet dream.
Click to expand...

That's what happens when fundamental human rights to protection from arbitrary arrest and detention, to the presumption of innocence, and to a fair trial are neglected. I could be wrong, but I'd imagine that no US or British immigration official would ever dare try to deport me for working without a visa without respecting my right to due process, and I believe that the reason is cultural. In England, every eleven-year-old reads the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In the US, I believe every Jr. Secondary school learner reads the US Bill of Rights. As a result, these fundamental human rights are so ingrained into the cultural fabric of these countries that even if the law or Constitution did not require it, British and US immigration officials would still feel a moral obligation to do so out of a sense of patriotic obligation.

Canadian public schools provide no such education, and the consequence of this lack of education reveals itself through the acts of Canadian immigration officials.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom