How low the discourse has sunk about the ISIL mission

[Locutus]

Refreshing that someone calls out the Opposition madness.


As this week’s weird unfoldings in the House of Commons should at last make plain to even the most casual observer of the global struggle against theocratic fascism, Canada’s part in it has come down to this: Even the notoriously “right-wing” Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his Conservatives are making a more objectively “progressive,” classically liberal and genuinely militant contribution to the fight than the opposition Liberals and the New Democratic Party put together. That’s how low we’ve sunk.

To understand just how this strange state of affairs has arisen, it’s useful to unburden oneself of some of the great weight of pretty lies that Canadians are routinely told in order to disguise the disgrace of this country’s elites in their overall indifference to the suffering victims of Islamist terror. The first lie that would need to go is that Afghanistan is a quagmire, that we expended all that blood and treasure for nothing.


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Glavin: How low the discourse has sunk about the ISIL mission | Ottawa Citizen

 

[Cannuck]

Looks like Terry is a little salty.

 

[nimrod]

With friends like Glavin-who needs enemies?He is ostensibly a socialist-a signatory to the Euston manifesto but the few things i have read from him sound like he is a fifth columnist for the right wingers.Like all the Euston signers -they are big on lofty rhetoric and nothing else.He has a new book about Afghanistan so maybe that is fueling his outrage over its abandonment by the world.Excerpt from his blog -"the pretty lies about Afghanistan that "it is a quagmire,that we expended all that blood and treasure for nothing.This fairytale is immediately relevant to this week’s debates because the Taliban are the incubators, precursors and role models of ISIL, and breaking the Talibs’ grip on Afghanistan has opened up the brightest democratic space anywhere between Syria’s bomb-strewn Mediterranean coast and the outskirts of New Delhi. Some quagmire."end excerpt. Now here is todays news-Religious scholar Farkunda,falsely accused of burning a Qur'an was beaten,run over by a car and burned before her body was dumped into the Kabul river last week.Police say 18 arrested and 13 police suspended as part of investigation."
Yes sounds like Sunday in the park.Oil,gas,a strategic corridor for pipelines, opium poppies and an estimated 3 trillion in minerals like lithium had nothing to do with Russian and now western occupations.Funny nothing happened when resource poor Rwanda went wild.Anyone with even a slight interest in history knows the truth unless they are willfully blind like our own government.Read Viet Nam vet and movie producer Oliver Stone's book "The Untold History of the U.S." with award winning historian Peter Kushnik.It is hard to believe but you know they would of had their asses sued off if there was any falsehoods.Here's a little hint -a quote made around 9/11 by Rumsfeld that American General Wesley Clarke leaked( it's on youtube).In it he told Clark that America was going to invade 7 countries starting with Iraq,Syria Lebanon, Lybia, Somalia, Sudan, and finishing with Iran.Glavin must have ruined his brain with opium while in Afghanistan because it is a quagmire for numerous reasons not the least that the latest neverending war has been on for over a decade with the whole Middle East a place we should stay the hell out of.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

With friends like Glavin-who needs enemies?He is ostensibly a socialist-a signatory to the Euston manifesto but the few things i have read from him sound like he is a fifth columnist for the right wingers.Like all the Euston signers -they are big on lofty rhetoric and nothing else.He has a new book about Afghanistan so maybe that is fueling his outrage over its abandonment by the world.Excerpt from his blog -"the pretty lies about Afghanistan that "it is a quagmire,that we expended all that blood and treasure for nothing.This fairytale is immediately relevant to this week’s debates because the Taliban are the incubators, precursors and role models of ISIL, and breaking the Talibs’ grip on Afghanistan has opened up the brightest democratic space anywhere between Syria’s bomb-strewn Mediterranean coast and the outskirts of New Delhi. Some quagmire."end excerpt. Now here is todays news-Religious scholar Farkunda,falsely accused of burning a Qur'an was beaten,run over by a car and burned before her body was dumped into the Kabul river last week.Police say 18 arrested and 13 police suspended as part of investigation."

How is the murder of Farkunda relevant to whether or not Afghanistan is democratic, compared to other countries in the region?

 

[Colpy]

Okay....here is my problem with the current mission proposal.

We would be allied with Assad, not officially, but by killing his enemies in Syria......we might as well be.

We would be allied with Iranians in Iraq (if we aren't now) Iran-backed militias, led by Iranian military officers, are doing most of the grunt work of the Iraqi Army. (Thanks Obama, you turd)

Bad news.

But killing ISIS scum is among the highest of callings.
I think we should work exclusively with the Kurds, who have proven their ability, and their dependability, as well as their ability to run a nation. We should supply them with weapons, act as their air cover, and increase the number of Canadians aiding them on the ground, and dump the idiotic restrictions on Canadians engaging the enemy on the ground. We should become the Kurds' best friends. Beat ISIS back into Syria, let them fight it out there, then if necessary, blast the winner. We should maintain close ties to the Kurds, as the Shia will be trying to dump on them as soon as they are done with ISIS.

Obama is a moron.

We need to act independently of his foreign policy.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I couldn't agree more. Whatever you think of Obama, I would encourage Canada to sign on to U.S. foreign policy, and especially our foreign policy that goes "BOOM," on an a la carte basis. Korea, yes; Vietnam, no. Afghanistan, yes; Iraq, no. Canada has good (not perfect, but good) instincts about what wars are worth fighting, and how they're worth fighting. Surrendering that judgment to another country, particularly one whose judgment has proved. . . shall we say "spotty?". . . in the past would be criminal foolishness.

 

[Zipperfish]

.

Obama is a moron.

We need to act independently of his foreign policy.

Workgin with the Kurds is his foreign policy. And get ready for a nasty surporise when you find out the Kurds are just like the rest of the folks over there, and if they are in control they will behave the same way as Assad and Saddam did.

This is mission creep. The public are behind it. But the public is usually behind a war at the start. Heck, the public was behind going into Iraq with the US in 2003. Of course, trying to find someone now who will admit that is hard to do. People are funny. But war being war, there will be unpredictable consequences, most of them bad. A wedding will blown up, or the Kurds will get caught torturing some poor schmuk who was in the wrong place at the wrong time or there'll be a friendly fire accident.

I back this mission as a humanitarian one to prevent genocide against the Kurds and the Yazidis but I have no illusions that we are somehow going to prevent this epic Shi'a / Sunni struggle.

I wonder if we'll be going into Nigeria next?

 

[petros]

Cut the Hindus loose on them.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Workgin with the Kurds is his foreign policy. And get ready for a nasty surporise when you find out the Kurds are just like the rest of the folks over there, and if they are in control they will behave the same way as Assad and Saddam did.

This is mission creep. The public are behind it. But the public is usually behind a war at the start. Heck, the public was behind going into Iraq with the US in 2003. Of course, trying to find someone now who will admit that is hard to do. People are funny. But war being war, there will be unpredictable consequences, most of them bad. A wedding will blown up, or the Kurds will get caught torturing some poor schmuk who was in the wrong place at the wrong time or there'll be a friendly fire accident.

I back this mission as a humanitarian one to prevent genocide against the Kurds and the Yazidis but I have no illusions that we are somehow going to prevent this epic Shi'a / Sunni struggle.

I wonder if we'll be going into Nigeria next?

Yeah, there's this perception among the far right that the Kurds are pretty much just like us. Heck, give 'em a little bit of help and they'll convert en masse and start playing hockey (football for Yanks) and drinking Molson (Bud Lite for Yanks).

They's good ol' boys.

 

[nimrod]

How is the murder of Farkunda relevant to whether or not Afghanistan is democratic, compared to other countries in the region?

Cultural relativism aside -do you know many democracies where an innocent woman can be killed brutally on a rumour and not just 18 criminals arrested but 13 police officers be suspended because of their roles in it?
It is just one up to date counterpoint to Glavin's claptrap.Western powers have been trouble making there since the early 1800's(google -The Great Game.)
While i think Euston proponents are very wrong,especially with their eager backing of war in other countries ,there is one signer that i think at least has the situation about right.His name is Justin Hall and despite Euston's strong denunciation of anti-Americanism, tells some truth. This is it...
Trapped in a never-ending process of state suppression, horrific poverty, and shocking military, cultural and social defeats, the average Muslim living in the Middle East has nothing else.
Corrupt governments ensure the stability of their own regimes by financing their own secret police and military while turning a blind eye to radical mullahs: they justify the corrupt regime, and the regime will turn a blind eye to their fundamentalist, revolutionary rhetoric.
The result? An oppressed people whose only outlet is religion, which becomes radicalized to conform to the population’s own radicalism.
Religion becomes a solution, the only solution in a society that offers little else. It becomes the only remaining alternative to failed democracy, failed socialism, failed fascism and failed monarchy.
A panacea for withering economic growth, state-sponsored suppression and, to a great extent, humility in the face of a powerful, rich and functioning democracy in the form of Israel and American influence on the policies on Middle Eastern regimes. It is imperative that we approach this complex, explosive issue through a bipartisan, unified front. It is only through productive dialogue from opposing parties that we can arrive at a clear, practical solution that addresses the fundamental reasons for terrorism.(end quote.)
You cannot win "hearts and minds" of people(various warring ethnic clans actually)who have deservedly become complete cynics about "help' from abroad and have extremist religion as their only core belief.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Cultural relativism aside -do you know many democracies where an innocent woman can be killed brutally on a rumour and not just 18 criminals arrested but 13 police officers be suspended because of their roles in it?

India? The United States?

Primer: democracy is a form of government in which a large subset of citizens hold sovereign power, exercised either directly or through representatives.

Please note what democracy is not. . . it is not "good government," it is not "honest cops," and it is not "little or no crime."

If your argument is that this horrendous crime proves that Afghanistan is not a democracy, is that not analogous to saying that the racial violence in the American South in the 50s and 60s proves that the U.S. was not a democracy at the time?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think much of Afghanistan, either as a democracy or as a civilized country. I'm just saying that the fact that horrible things happen are not relevant to the form of government.

Afghanistan's current government is corrupt, of limited effectiveness, and incredibly inefficient. But it would appear that the realistic options at the moment are 1) continue to do what we can to improve the honesty, effectiveness, and efficiency of the Afghan government or 2) turn the whole shooting match back over to the Taliban.

I'll take option 1. You're free to disagree.

It is just one up to date counterpoint to Glavin's claptrap.Western powers have been trouble making there since the early 1800's(google -The Great Game.)

Don't need to, thanks. Well familiar with the Great Game.

While i think Euston proponents are very wrong,especially with their eager backing of war in other countries ,there is one signer that i think at least has the situation about right.His name is Justin Hall and despite Euston's strong denunciation of anti-Americanism, tells some truth. This is it...
Trapped in a never-ending process of state suppression, horrific poverty, and shocking military, cultural and social defeats, the average Muslim living in the Middle East has nothing else.
Corrupt governments ensure the stability of their own regimes by financing their own secret police and military while turning a blind eye to radical mullahs: they justify the corrupt regime, and the regime will turn a blind eye to their fundamentalist, revolutionary rhetoric.
The result? An oppressed people whose only outlet is religion, which becomes radicalized to conform to the population’s own radicalism.
Religion becomes a solution, the only solution in a society that offers little else. It becomes the only remaining alternative to failed democracy, failed socialism, failed fascism and failed monarchy.
A panacea for withering economic growth, state-sponsored suppression and, to a great extent, humility in the face of a powerful, rich and functioning democracy in the form of Israel and American influence on the policies on Middle Eastern regimes. It is imperative that we approach this complex, explosive issue through a bipartisan, unified front. It is only through productive dialogue from opposing parties that we can arrive at a clear, practical solution that addresses the fundamental reasons for terrorism.(end quote.)

I agree with all of that, except that he said "humility" where I think he meant "humiliation."

You cannot win "hearts and minds" of people(various warring ethnic clans actually)who have deservedly become complete cynics about "help' from abroad and have extremist religion as their only core belief.

So, what's your solution? Pull out and do nothing on any level?

 

[nimrod]

India? The United States?

Primer: democracy is a form of government in which a large subset of citizens hold sovereign power, exercised either directly or through representatives.

Please note what democracy is not. . . it is not "good government," it is not "honest cops," and it is not "little or no crime."

If your argument is that this horrendous crime proves that Afghanistan is not a democracy, is that not analogous to saying that the racial violence in the American South in the 50s and 60s proves that the U.S. was not a democracy at the time?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think much of Afghanistan, either as a democracy or as a civilized country. I'm just saying that the fact that horrible things happen are not relevant to the form of government.

Afghanistan's current government is corrupt, of limited effectiveness, and incredibly inefficient. But it would appear that the realistic options at the moment are 1) continue to do what we can to improve the honesty, effectiveness, and efficiency of the Afghan government or 2) turn the whole shooting match back over to the Taliban.

I'll take option 1. You're free to disagree.


Don't need to, thanks. Well familiar with the Great Game.


I agree with all of that, except that he said "humility" where I think he meant "humiliation."


So, what's your solution? Pull out and do nothing on any level?

What's your 'primer'for me on democracy-i didn't bump my head falling off the turnip truck.Resistance against c-51,authoritarian "democratic" governments and secret police is every citizens duty.Dissent is democracy in action.
President Eisenhower's famous farewell speech -his fears of an out of control military industrial complex has occurred.
War is our business .Harper had no problem selling $15 billion of armaments to the "birthplace" of 9/11 ,Saudi Arabia with their terrible history of human rights abuse. Yet he is outraged that Muslims only uncover their faces in private during citizen ship ceremonies.
Viet Nam vets had a saying"fighting for peace is like f***ing for chastity." What the hell is wrong with John Wayne caricatures going to kick *** and clean up the "cowtowns" in foreign lands?
Even John Wayne didn't believe his own bulls**t and avoided military service.
I would say go in a limited way even though we are on a level of Elmer Fudd with a popgun-the Edmonton Mall had/has more working submarines than the Canadian navy!Yeah-i know- its sand this time...
Like Nam -American army would be more than happy to have gung ho Canadian soldiers fight as part of their armies.As the death toll mounts we could be the cheap (for home as well) new cannon fodder instead of GI's.
Hell all the Harperites could show their toughness and go risk their necks.We'll waive the age requirements and make larger suicide belts for middle aged waists.
Or- we could be more helpful and actually engender some good will with our traditions of common sense and humanitarian aid with our less bloodthirsty canuck brethren(an apocalypse for all )
Doesn't the millions of deaths,trillions of dollars wasted and expansion of western hatred, mistrust and mushrooming of crazy religion over DECADES even suggest to friends of the military industrial complex that IT AINT WORKING?
I guess the power elite won't be happy till they bankrupt us over stupid dreams of cultural hegemony.
Dream your dreams- Afghanistan is a paper democracy-that paper is green and propped up by covert opium trade,warlords from everywhere and as soon as the boots leave the ground like last time-Taliban tribes will ride again.
P.S.- is your moniker derived from Tecumseh/Brock? Just another wasted alliance smashed by American 'exceptionalism"?

 

[Spade]

I, too, must have rolled off the rutabaga wagon. I always assumed the rule of law was valued both within Canada and for governing our behaviour internationally.

 

[whitedog]

Workgin with the Kurds is his foreign policy. And get ready for a nasty surporise when you find out the Kurds are just like the rest of the folks over there, and if they are in control they will behave the same way as Assad and Saddam did.

This is mission creep. The public are behind it. But the public is usually behind a war at the start. Heck, the public was behind going into Iraq with the US in 2003. Of course, trying to find someone now who will admit that is hard to do. People are funny. But war being war, there will be unpredictable consequences, most of them bad. A wedding will blown up, or the Kurds will get caught torturing some poor schmuk who was in the wrong place at the wrong time or there'll be a friendly fire accident.

I back this mission as a humanitarian one to prevent genocide against the Kurds and the Yazidis but I have no illusions that we are somehow going to prevent this epic Shi'a / Sunni struggle.

I wonder if we'll be going into Nigeria next?

Why would we go there (Nigeria)? Don't tell me they are threatening us on you tube as well?

 

[Colpy]

I, too, must have rolled off the rutabaga wagon. I always assumed the rule of law was valued both within Canada and for governing our behaviour internationally.

Anybody that either pays close attention to international law, or that believes any other country pays close attention to international law when it conflicts with their national interests just "rolled off the rutabaga wagon"

 

[Spade]

Now we know how you will argue when other nations breach international law. "Relax, shi t happens!"

 

[damngrumpy]

I love this discussion we tried to overthrow Assad we helped to arm his enemies
and that equalled ISIS now we are going to help Assad by bombing his enemies,
the people we helped arm in the first place.
I for one don't give a damn what dictators do inside their own borders its up to the
people to get rid of them. HOWEVER this group crossed borders and spread the
conflict thus in my view inviting the world to act.
I support the mission now that we start the trouble.
Harry Truman once said of Juan Paron "He is a son of a bitch but he is our son of a bitch"
Same applies to Assad in this case.
The Opposition is quite right in opposing this to a point in order to demonstrate what the
allied forces have done. This whole thing is about money and restarting the economy that
is failing and no one wants to admit it. The government is creating this distraction the
improve its election chances. While for the most part I support the government on this one
I will not be voting for Harper in the next election I have three choices Trudeau, Mulcair or
spoil my ballot but I will not vote for Harper he has done untold damage to our social
programs and the direction of the country

 

[Zipperfish]

Why would we go there (Nigeria)? Don't tell me they are threatening us on you tube as well?

Boko Harum has apparently joined ISIS.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

What's your 'primer'for me on democracy-i didn't bump my head falling off the turnip truck.

I'll accept that, but you still don't seem to understand that democracy is a form of government.

Resistance against c-51,authoritarian "democratic" governments and secret police is every citizens duty.Dissent is democracy in action.

I agree completely. I just don't tell other folks what their "duty" is. Each up to each to figure out her own.

President Eisenhower's famous farewell speech -his fears of an out of control military industrial complex has occurred.
War is our business .Harper had no problem selling $15 billion of armaments to the "birthplace" of 9/11 ,Saudi Arabia with their terrible history of human rights abuse. Yet he is outraged that Muslims only uncover their faces in private during citizen ship ceremonies.
Viet Nam vets had a saying"fighting for peace is like f***ing for chastity." What the hell is wrong with John Wayne caricatures going to kick *** and clean up the "cowtowns" in foreign lands?
Even John Wayne didn't believe his own bulls**t and avoided military service.

Again, the fact that a country goes to war foolishly is irrelevant to its form of government.

I would say go in a limited way even though we are on a level of Elmer Fudd with a popgun-the Edmonton Mall had/has more working submarines than the Canadian navy!Yeah-i know- its sand this time...
Like Nam -American army would be more than happy to have gung ho Canadian soldiers fight as part of their armies.As the death toll mounts we could be the cheap (for home as well) new cannon fodder instead of GI's.

Always happy to have the Canadians on our side. They're excellent soldiers. Glad to have them when we do, and as I've said, completely accept when Canada decides not to engage in some particular operation. Canada has shown remarkably good sense, historically, on when to fight and when not to.

Hell all the Harperites could show their toughness and go risk their necks.We'll waive the age requirements and make larger suicide belts for middle aged waists.

First time I heard that idea was the '60s.

Or- we could be more helpful and actually engender some good will with our traditions of common sense and humanitarian aid with our less bloodthirsty canuck brethren(an apocalypse for all )

I was accepting the argument you posted that the Afghans won't accept or trust anything we do. Are you retracting that argument?

Doesn't the millions of deaths,trillions of dollars wasted and expansion of western hatred, mistrust and mushrooming of crazy religion over DECADES even suggest to friends of the military industrial complex that IT AINT WORKING?
I guess the power elite won't be happy till they bankrupt us over stupid dreams of cultural hegemony.

I'm not sure you understand the motives of the M-I complex.

Dream your dreams- Afghanistan is a paper democracy-that paper is green and propped up by covert opium trade,warlords from everywhere and as soon as the boots leave the ground like last time-Taliban tribes will ride again.

Works for me.

P.S.- is your moniker derived from Tecumseh/Brock? Just another wasted alliance smashed by American 'exceptionalism"?

My moniker's based on my amusement that the set of Tecumseh's bones in London, ON is one of three "official" sets, one of which ain't even human bones. We had a cottage industry for a while selling Tecumseh's bones to the Shemanese.

I like your passion. I would appreciate it if you'd use spacing and such. It makes your posts easier to read.

Anybody that either pays close attention to international law, or that believes any other country pays close attention to international law when it conflicts with their national interests just "rolled off the rutabaga wagon"

The same was once true of national law. The folks in the civilized cities in the East mostly abided by the law. Out West, not so much.

We'll have effective international law some day, but don't expect it to come easy or fast. And if the civilized countries don't abide by it, it'll be that much harder and slower.

 

[Colpy]

Now we know how you will argue when other nations breach international law. "Relax, shi t happens!"

Actually, I won't argue at all, as international law is a global practical joke.