Politicians and the church: The NDP's Charlie Angus knows how Justin Trudeau feels


mentalfloss
+1
#1
Politicians and the church: The NDP's Charlie Angus knows how Justin Trudeau feels

It’s still a deeply emotional memory for Charlie Angus, nearly a decade after the fact.

A devout Roman Catholic, Angus was a rookie member of Parliament for the NDP in February 2005, representing the northern Ontario riding of Timmins-James Bay. On the agenda in the House of Commons was the Civil Marriage Act, which would legalize same-sex marriage.

Amid debate on that act, Angus’s parish priest threatened to prevent him from participating in the most sacred Roman Catholic tradition, receiving communion, if he supported the bill. It wasn’t an idle threat, as Angus found out after voting in favour of the legislation.

A former Catholic school board trustee and church choir member, he was denounced from the pulpit, while the local bishop issued a press release promising to help defeat him in the next election. That was only the beginning.

“It had an effect on my family, my daughters, my wife, my aunts who are nuns in the convent, my mother,” Angus told the Citizen.

“When you’re part of a community and you’re being told that you’re not going to be part of it or punished … I think the emotional stuff for other people beside me was bigger.”

Angus recalled his standoff with the church at a time when a rift appears to be opening between Justin Trudeau and the Roman Catholic church. This week, an Ottawa bishop suggested the Liberal leader could be prevented from receiving communion because Trudeau has required that future Liberal MPs vote pro-choice on questions around abortion.

Auxiliary Bishop Christian Riesbeck told the CBC that church officials would like to meet with Trudeau to discuss the Liberal leader’s position “before jumping to that conclusion.

“But someone who persists, who obstinately persists in a teaching that is contrary to the clear and unchanging teaching on the core issues of life, if they obstinately persist, then they can be denied communion according to the law of the church,” Riesbeck said.

Trudeau has no intention of changing his position, saying that “my role is to stand up and defend all Canadians, and my role in terms of that is separate from any personal, religious views.”

The Liberal leader was raised Roman Catholic by his father, attending church on weekends and praying each night. He and wife, Sophie Gregoire, were married in a Roman Catholic church in Montreal. And he took offence to suggestions by Conservative-turned-Independent MP Dean Del Mastro in 2011 that he was a bad Catholic.

Trudeau’s office declined to say Thursday whether he still attends church on a regular basis, and if so, whether he attends in Ottawa, Montreal or both. (Trudeau and his family recently moved from Montreal to Ottawa’s Rockcliffe Park.)

Whether the uproar over Trudeau’s abortion stand among Roman Catholic leaders, – including critiques from the archbishops of Toronto, Ottawa and Edmonton – could hurt the Liberal party’s electoral chances is hotly debated.

The Conservatives in particular say they will now be the only major federal party not requiring their MPs to vote pro-choice (the NDP has long required its members to back a woman’s right to choose).

But Angus says that in his experience with same-sex marriage, the actions taken against him by the clergy actually offended many Catholics, who ended up rallying to support him.

He and two other NDP MPs singled out by Catholic leaders for their support of same-sex marriage in 2005, Tony Martin and Joe Comartin, were re-elected in the following federal election.

Angus says today he still has strong relationships with many people in the local parish community, and he says he remains a faithful Roman Catholic, but has never returned to the church where he was denounced.

“It certainly carried major implications,” he added, “but it wasn’t going to turn me off how I voted. And I never regretted it for an instant, the way I voted.”

Politicians versus the church: NDP MP Angus knows how Trudeau feels | Ottawa Citizen
 
gerryh
+5
#2  Top Rated Post
so what? Is it a surprise that the Church denounced Angus and JT for their stances? What's your point?
 
coldstream
+1
#3
Quote:


“But someone who persists, who obstinately persists in a teaching that is
contrary to the clear and unchanging teaching on the core issues of life, if
they obstinately persist, then they can be denied communion according to the law
of the church,”

That's Canon Law. It is obligatory for a Catholic priest to deny Communion to those who obstinately persist in actions in clear contradiction of Catholic moral teachings and doctrine. That includes voting for homosexual legitimization, or abortion, or euthenasia.

Catholics in fact take an oath to do just that, in the Witness of God, when they Confirmed. It is implicit in their baptism and membership in the Church and when they pray the Apostle's Creed every Mass.

What's not mentioned here is the intense pressure and threat that the NDP put on any who did not vote for Same Sex Marriage.. essentially imposing an edict that would result in ouster from the caucus and the Party if anyone dared even to refuse to vote on the issue.

So this could easily be a seen as intolerance and intimidation on the moral conscience of an individual by the Party as the Church. The pot is calling the kettle black.

Justin really is an intellectual and moral twit.. a real lightweight.. who would be a disaster for country. But so was Harper.
Last edited by coldstream; May 23rd, 2014 at 01:35 PM..
 
damngrumpy
No Party Affiliation
+2
#4
This is one of the reasons I left the Church a long time ago. When some organization
starts dictating your thoughts and how to respond to what you your believe you can take
it, you can moderate your beliefs or you can do what you personally believe.
I wonder sometimes about some folks. If you don't bend to what the rest of use believe
we will cast you out of the community. Sounds like a bully pulpit to me. Trudeau brought
up an issue that should have been left alone I agree but for the church to demand that
all members think the same is nonsense. I didn't think they would go this far like other
faiths of the closed mind but I see nothing has changed.
See if there were people within the church community with different thoughts there would
have to be a discussion. No one wants that. The church want control of what people
think and even believe. Catholic leaders are not alone none of the real clergy want people
thinking for themselves good heavens that won't do.
Many Catholics say nothing and think and believe what they want which makes the clergy
look rather silly to me. Don't have time for them anymore. I think the Congregation should
have some input say a vote on a number of these issues I wonder how much the church
might change and become relevant to the needs of today
 
gerryh
+3
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

This is one of the reasons I left the Church a long time ago. When some organization
starts dictating your thoughts and how to respond to what you your believe you can take
it, you can moderate your beliefs or you can do what you personally believe.
I wonder sometimes about some folks. If you don't bend to what the rest of use believe
we will cast you out of the community. Sounds like a bully pulpit to me. Trudeau brought
up an issue that should have been left alone I agree but for the church to demand that
all members think the same is nonsense. I didn't think they would go this far like other
faiths of the closed mind but I see nothing has changed.
See if there were people within the church community with different thoughts there would
have to be a discussion. No one wants that. The church want control of what people
think and even believe. Catholic leaders are not alone none of the real clergy want people
thinking for themselves good heavens that won't do.
Many Catholics say nothing and think and believe what they want which makes the clergy
look rather silly to me. Don't have time for them anymore. I think the Congregation should
have some input say a vote on a number of these issues I wonder how much the church
might change and become relevant to the needs of today


Obviously, the "Church" doesn't "force" anyone to do anything. You are a prime example. You didn't like what they said and did so you left. That's the thing about a "free society" like Canada. You have that choice and option.
 
BornRuff
+2
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Obviously, the "Church" doesn't "force" anyone to do anything. You are a prime example. You didn't like what they said and did so you left. That's the thing about a "free society" like Canada. You have that choice and option.

We also have the free choice to condemn organizations that act this way.
 
gerryh
+1
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by BornRuffView Post

We also have the free choice to condemn organizations that act this way.


Yup, and we have the right to call murderers, murderers.
 
mentalfloss
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Yup, and we have the right to call murderers, murderers.

Speciesism.
 
BornRuff
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Yup, and we have the right to call murderers, murderers.

Well, not necessarily. That could be considered libel under certain circumstances.
 
damngrumpy
No Party Affiliation
#10
There are a lot of people afraid for their soul if they and leave and many don't agree
with the churches position on a lot of things but if they say it in public they invite a
backlash from the clergy cause you shouldn't think that way. Regardless of the
politics or religion you should be able to express your opinion without being thrown
out of the church on issues like pro choice etc. Why it was only a few years ago
the church admitted the earth was round because centuries ago the Pope said
otherwise. We all know what happened to people who believed the earth was round.
Its time the people within the church said enough. This is not some medieval nation
we have the right to think as individuals without interference from churches, and yes
still belong to the church. Just cause you don't agree with a particular position should
not require one to leave.
Churches don't understand why people don't go to church anymore. Its because they
don't get with the times and recognize we are not in the middle ages.
 
WLDB
No Party Affiliation
+1
#11
The elementary and junior high school I went to was connected to that same parish. That same priest came to our school often. I was already a non-believer, but they really soured me on Catholicism in particular. The stances of the church on this and some other issues continues to do so. F*ck 'em. I have no regrets on leaving.
 
Walter
-1
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by WLDBView Post

The elementary and junior high school I went to was connected to that same parish. That same priest came to our school often. I was already a non-believer, but they really soured me on Catholicism in particular. The stances of the church on this and some other issues continues to do so. F*ck 'em. I have no regrets on leaving.

And I'm sure they were glad to see you go.
 
damngrumpy
No Party Affiliation
#13
I left for reasons of I can't believe these people believe what they believe.
The church says they are firm in their teachings yet they went to other
parts of the world and adopted the customs and celebrations of others.
Christmas in December to combat the Druids they took the Easter
festivals of Spring and turned into a Christian Celebration. In fact most
of the Pagan festivals were refits for Christian celebrations.
Oh and if you didn't believe their version of life you were condemned in many
cases to death. It is the prime reason society put an end to divine power.
I do believe some of what they say is true but I don't follow a single drum beat.
I am not into angels and devils and spirits and witches and ghosts and all
that stuff it is using unknown spiritual super power to control the mind.
I believe in the human spirit as a force for good but I do not believe God is going
to get you if you don't believe in the whole package.
 
Sparrow
+1
#14
Blackmail is illegal and this is exactly what it is, and what makes it worse is it comes from hypocrites.
 
gerryh
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by SparrowView Post

Blackmail is illegal and this is exactly what it is, and what makes it worse is it comes from hypocrites.


how is it blackmail?
 
DaSleeper
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by SparrowView Post

Blackmail is illegal and this is exactly what it is, and what makes it worse is it comes from hypocrites.


Making a racist comment is not against the law, but against societal rules, and you can be fired from your job for it, as many have found....
And going against church rule can get you excommunicated.....
What makes one OK, and the other one wrong in your mind?
You belief in one but not the other?
If one is blackmail, so is the other...
So it ends up being just a matter of opinion...and yours is no more valid than mine!
 
Sparrow
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

how is it blackmail?

Because it means that if he doesn't vote the way they demand he will be ostracized as was done to people who they believed sinned against the church. It is the same as when the priest came for his yearly visit and would say all kinds of things to my mother because she had only one child. After he left my mother was in terrible shape for several days until my father could calm her down. One year my mother told my dad that the priest was coming that afternoon, well Dad came home and listened outside the door until the priest started to manipulate my mother then he came into the room and told the priest that it was our house and to get the h*** out and look in his own house before judging ours. Funny no priest ever came back and none of us including my father were ever sanction by the church.

How dare the church who has covered up so much and lied so much judge others?
 
gerryh
+1
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by SparrowView Post

Because it means that if he doesn't vote the way they demand he will be ostracized as was done to people who they believed sinned against the church. It is the same as when the priest came for his yearly visit and would say all kinds of things to my mother because she had only one child. After he left my mother was in terrible shape for several days until my father could calm her down. One year my mother told my dad that the priest was coming that afternoon, well Dad came home and listened outside the door until the priest started to manipulate my mother then he came into the room and told the priest that it was our house and to get the h*** out and look in his own house before judging ours. Funny no priest ever came back and none of us including my father were ever sanction by the church.


So, no blackmail. Just because your Mother was weak enough to ALLOW the Priest to make her feel guilty does not make what he did blackmail.

Quote: Originally Posted by SparrowView Post


How dare the church who has covered up so much and lied so much judge others?


You don't like the RCC or what they do, then don't be a member. Simple really.

Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

Speciesism.


Yup, your point?



Quote: Originally Posted by BornRuffView Post

Well, not necessarily. That could be considered libel under certain circumstances.


Nope, in my opinion, anyone that get's an abortion, or supports abortion is murdering an unborn child. Therefore, in my opinion, they are murderers.

I do have the right to voice my opinion, do I not?
 
petros
#19
Your faith or toe the political line?

That's an easy choice.
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Nope, in my opinion, anyone that get's an abortion, or supports abortion is murdering an unborn child. Therefore, in my opinion, they are murderers.

So do you think your old pal, Pierre, would back you up on that opinion?
 
Sparrow
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

So, no blackmail. Just because your Mother was weak enough to ALLOW the Priest to make her feel guilty does not make what he did blackmail.




You don't like the RCC or what they do, then don't be a member. Simple really.




Yup, your point?






Nope, in my opinion, anyone that get's an abortion, or supports abortion is murdering an unborn child. Therefore, in my opinion, they are murderers.

I do have the right to voice my opinion, do I not?

My Mother was not weak in any way but the church, especially here had a firm grip on the population. That is why we fought like the devil to get the church out of gouvernment because the cardinal gave his orders to the government. You have no idea how far they went.

What do you think they are trying to do? They are trying to tell a member of OUR government how to vote under a threat of excommunication. That is blackmail to me!
 
gerryh
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

So do you think your old pal, Pierre, would back you up on that opinion?

I don't care. It is MY opinion. Not anyone elses. If there are others that share that opinion, fine. If not, no skin off my a$$.

Quote: Originally Posted by SparrowView Post

My Mother was not weak in any way but the church, especially here had a firm grip on the population. That is why we fought like the devil to get the church out of gouvernment because the cardinal gave his orders to the government. You have no idea how far they went.

Yes I do, but for me, I don't care. The Church does not tell me what to do, nor does it tell me what to think. I do that all on my own. It was the same with my Mother and Father and with their parents.

Quote: Originally Posted by SparrowView Post

What do you think they are trying to do? They are trying to tell a member of OUR government how to vote under a threat of excommunication. That is blackmail to me!

That is the Church's rules. Like any other organization, they have rules, and like any other organization, if you break those rules you may be turfed.
 
JLM
No Party Affiliation
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

I don't care. It is MY opinion. Not anyone elses. If there are others that share that opinion, fine. If not, no skin off my a$$.



I totally agree but what I'm wondering is since you said Trudeau was one of our best Prime Ministers who also paved the way for ease at having an abortion and you also said that anyone who facilitated abortions in any way is a murderer, hence can only draw the conclusion that you think murderers make good Prime Ministers! Just wondering.
 
gerryh
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

I totally agree but what I'm wondering is since you said Trudeau was one of our best Prime Ministers who also paved the way for ease at having an abortion and you also said that anyone who facilitated abortions in any way is a murderer, hence can only draw the conclusion that you think murderers make good Prime Ministers! Just wondering.

Right....cause the abortion laws that his government brought in is the only thing he did in his 15 and a half years as Prime Minister.
 
Spade
Free Thinker
+1
#25
Perhaps some of us would have greater sympathy for the Church's position on the right to life, if they consistently applied it to politicians who advocate military action as foreign policy or those who trumpet the death penalty?

Where were the bishops prior to the Gulf War?

Where are the bishops on personal privacy?

Where are the bishops on women's equality?
 
BornRuff
+1
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Nope, in my opinion, anyone that get's an abortion, or supports abortion is murdering an unborn child. Therefore, in my opinion, they are murderers.

I do have the right to voice my opinion, do I not?

Calling someone a murderer isn't an opinion. You are accusing them of a crime.

If you accuse someone of being a murderer with nothing to back it up, you can be sued for libel.

This is just like Rob Ford calling Daniel Dale a pedophile. He can't just say it is a matter of opinion.

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

I don't care. It is MY opinion. Not anyone elses. If there are others that share that opinion, fine. If not, no skin off my a$$.

But you spoke very highly of PET in other threads.

What changed?
 
Dixie Cup
Libertarian
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

I left for reasons of I can't believe these people believe what they believe.
The church says they are firm in their teachings yet they went to other
parts of the world and adopted the customs and celebrations of others.
Christmas in December to combat the Druids they took the Easter
festivals of Spring and turned into a Christian Celebration. In fact most
of the Pagan festivals were refits for Christian celebrations.
Oh and if you didn't believe their version of life you were condemned in many
cases to death. It is the prime reason society put an end to divine power.
I do believe some of what they say is true but I don't follow a single drum beat.
I am not into angels and devils and spirits and witches and ghosts and all
that stuff it is using unknown spiritual super power to control the mind.
I believe in the human spirit as a force for good but I do not believe God is going
to get you if you don't believe in the whole package.



When my dad left our family for another family down the street, he didn't provide ($$) for us. Mom was a stay at home mom so had no work skills. Besides we lived in an extremely small town. One day, my mom went to the local parish priest to see if the Church would help her out until she could figure out what to do. He suggested that mom reconcile (and forgive) dad.


She was so pissed - he left us - he obviously didn't want anything to do with us. How was she supposed to change his mind? Unbelievable.


Since then, I have not had much to do with the Church - I don't believe its necessary to belong to one and not lead a good life. I still pray, ask for forgiveness, etc. Don't need to go to church for that!


JMO
 
gerryh
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by BornRuffView Post

Calling someone a murderer isn't an opinion. You are accusing them of a crime.


Then sue me. You support abortion, then you support murder and are no better than clifford olson.



Quote: Originally Posted by BornRuffView Post

But you spoke very highly of PET in other threads.

What changed?


Nothing has changed, or for you to like someone they need to be perfect in every way and agree with you 100% of the time?

Quote: Originally Posted by Dixie CupView Post

Since then, I have not had much to do with the Church - I don't believe its necessary to belong to one and not lead a good life. I still pray, ask for forgiveness, etc. Don't need to go to church for that!


JMO


Good for you, and 100% correct.
 
smallandmighty
Free Thinker
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Obviously, the "Church" doesn't "force" anyone to do anything. You are a prime example. You didn't like what they said and did so you left. That's the thing about a "free society" like Canada. You have that choice and option.

We have free choice and options in Canada??? Sorry I must have missed that memo..LOL! We have limited free choice and options is the way I see it, we also have to conform to the beliefs of the majority, if we don't then we are called all kinds of names, which in itself is finger pointing. If we have free choice and options, then so does church, and religion. They should be able to refuse same sex unions, and run the church according to belief and morals etc. They also should be paying taxes.
I know this is off topic a bit. But I often wonder why politicians when campaigning, do they have to attack others politicians. I, myself would be more inclined to have respect and vote for a politician to stuck to an itinerary of what they intend to do towards what they beleive in not what will get them voted in by popular beliefs.
 

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