Drawing Political Lines


SLM
No Party Affiliation
+2
#1
So here's the thing, as I get older (which I'm only admitting that I actually do this one time, so pay attention) I realize that by nature I tend to be a very conservative person. In the truest sense of the word. I look before I leap, I find comfort in having a solid plan before embarking on anything, nothing irritates me more than real waste. But when I look at the political landscape, the established parties we have in North America, both north and south of the border, I can honestly say that no one stream definitely fits all my needs, wants or philosophies. Definitely not full blown conservative parties because I do solidly reject social conservatism. I realize that social conservatism is not the mainstay of the conservative political parties but because it remains a significantly healthy part of it, I cannot embrace the politics fully and be 'party faithful'.

Yet I see people, both here on the forum and out in the "real world" (so to speak) who do align themselves. But the part that somewhat confounds me is, many of the folks that I see doing this I find to be not so different from myself. At least in the sense that I don't think, at least for how they express themselves or how I've felt I've related to them or them to me, that they really fall so lock-step into the 'party philosophy'. But there still seems to be this penchant to align themselves, either for or against and I just would really like to understand why.
 
El Barto
+2 / -1
#2
I doubt you will get an honest answer from those who are so deeply entranced in there political doctrine.
What comes out of it is just their hate ...
 
SLM
No Party Affiliation
#3
It's a topic for discussion, nothing more. I'm just curious as to what motivates others, many of whom I feel I have a lot in common with.
 
El Barto
-1
#4
In short , it is the politics of hate

Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

It's a topic for discussion, nothing more. I'm just curious as to what motivates others, many of whom I feel I have a lot in common with.

I got that
 
captain morgan
Bloc Québécois
+2
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

It's a topic for discussion, nothing more. I'm just curious as to what motivates others, many of whom I feel I have a lot in common with.


There is a big difference between how one decides to operate individually and how one is 'legislated ' to operate as a part of society.

What I am driving at relates to risk taking and dealing with the consequences or potentially the rewards.
 
SLM
No Party Affiliation
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by captain morganView Post

There is a big difference between how one decides to operate individually and how one is 'legislated ' to operate as a part of society.

True. I get that. It leaves me wondering though just why our choices in the voting booth then are so limited. Unless I'm really way, way off in my estimations, I've always considered that the 'true majority' (at least here in Canada) tend towards more middle of the road politically speaking. You'd think that if that were even remotely true then we'd have seen that emerge on the political spectrum. Unless maybe what we've seen are the attempts and we just haven't struck the right chord yet?

I get politics, as much as it can drive me nuts with it's game playing and run around, I do get it. I also get people. It's how the two fit together that just sometimes seems a very curious thing to me.

Quote:

What I am driving at relates to risk taking and dealing with the consequences or potentially the rewards.

And I think everyone does that. It's more that we question whether others, in our own esteemed opinions, have made those choices wisely.

And believe me, this is not about slagging on conservatives or liberals or any particular party in particular, nor those that support them. The sole reason for making mention of it at all in the OP is because it describes, to the best of my ability, my own experience and reasoning for the choices I make. In other words, I'm putting out there what I hope to receive back from others. Without all the hyperbole and extreme rhetoric, just as a "these are my thoughts on it" kind of thing.

Quote: Originally Posted by El BartoView Post

In short , it is the politics of hate

I got that

Right but....

Quote: Originally Posted by El BartoView Post

I doubt you will get an honest answer from those who are so deeply entranced in there political doctrine.
What comes out of it is just their hate ...

You're telling me about other people and what they think. I'm more interested in what you think and why. We can all make assumptions about other people's thoughts and reasoning, and I'm not suggesting yours are right or wrong, but we tend to get farther when we take the other path.
 
El Barto
+1 / -1
#7
I have no political leaning for one side or the other.
So I find it hard to answer for myself
 
SLM
No Party Affiliation
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by El BartoView Post

I have no political leaning for one side or the other.
So I find it hard to answer for myself

Well on many levels I tend not to either. But I do find that I have very strong opinions on basic issues that find it's way into the political landscape. Things like size of government or need for social programs within society, and they do not line up with the same political philosophies either.

I'm thinking of my sister in law right now who, to hear her actually speak and how she lives her life, she's quite conservative. She works in social services but is definitely not blind to the need for financial balance to social needs. Yet she would absolutely balk at the suggestion that she would ever vote conservative.
 
IdRatherBeSkiing
+2
#9
I tend to be very conservative fiscally. I also don't believe in government waste on people who don't want to help themselves. And I think government should cost the taxpayer the bare minimum and what is spent should be for stuff the taxpayer would use (infrastructure, healthcare, etc.). However, I am strongly liberal in social policy -- pro gay marriage, pro-choice, etc. and think that corporations are generally evil and should not be trusted. And I think that there are some who truly need help and don't get it. And I like politicians who say what they think rather than what they think you want to hear. Few and far between unfortunately and most that do also smoke crack.

I tend to align myself more with the Conservative party on all levels but each election is it's own decision. I have voted NDP in the past. The only party which I would probably never vote for is the one that keeps changing its platform to what it thinks will get it elected -- the Lieberals.

So I will likely join in a lot of arguments on the side of the conservatives but they do not own my vote.

(I also don't think any party will truly change anything so its kind of all a mute point but its the only point us serfs have.)
 
Locutus
+2
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

So here's the thing, as I get older (which I'm only admitting that I actually do this one time, so pay attention) I realize that by nature I tend to be a very conservative person. In the truest sense of the word. I look before I leap, I find comfort in having a solid plan before embarking on anything, nothing irritates me more than real waste. But when I look at the political landscape, the established parties we have in North America, both north and south of the border, I can honestly say that no one stream definitely fits all my needs, wants or philosophies. Definitely not full blown conservative parties because I do solidly reject social conservatism. I realize that social conservatism is not the mainstay of the conservative political parties but because it remains a significantly healthy part of it, I cannot embrace the politics fully and be 'party faithful'.
Yet I see people, both here on the forum and out in the "real world" (so to speak) who do align themselves. But the part that somewhat confounds me is, many of the folks that I see doing this I find to be not so different from myself. At least in the sense that I don't think, at least for how they express themselves or how I've felt I've related to them or them to me, that they really fall so lock-step into the 'party philosophy'. But there still seems to be this penchant to align themselves, either for or against and I just would really like to understand why.

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post

There are plenty of parties out there but most not mainstream or well established. You're right about all encompassing too. I have to find a party that fits best, best suits my beliefs...like men's socks (fits 7-11 they say). Too much left-leaning nonsense simply doesn't impress me. Either way, the extremes of both ends are quite ridiculous.

I'm a bit like you where social conservatism is more of a dinosaur than a reality. I'm a non-church-going, non-christian small 'c' conservative that still likes to see some of that where it suits me (such as Christmas) for whatever sentimental or head-shrinking reason. I have been 'educated', schooled and been slapped through my years online and have changed my views on significant issues. Pot use (thanks to Muz, Unf and Bear), homosexuality (Paradox, Westmanguy and others), and wa,r to a certain extent, by gerry especially. I don't wanna 'be like' these other folk but I listened to what they repeatedly said throughout the years.

I do not like to be told as a citizen what to do, say, watch, how to speak, what language to speak or whether I can shop on sundays. That sorta thing. Those that try lose points on my scorecard. I'll still rather vote for them though because their rank is higher than that of the next bunch of wankers with my best interests in mind (they say).

Too much control is no good. Too much government interference, control or hand-holding will also score low. I learn more each day but will likely never vote NDP.
 
DaSleeper
+1
#11
I have yet to meet someone neutral.....everyone is for something or against something....stating otherwise is suffering from delusion.
 
Tecumsehsbones
+3
#12
Fear is a powerful motivator.
 
DaSleeper
+1
#13
So is bullshyte!
 
Cliffy
Free Thinker
+5
#14  Top Rated Post
I'm for a total dismantling of our present system - no parties at all, a complete rewrite of the constitution after extensive consultation with citizens, a complete ban on corporate interference in government and take away the right of corporations to hold the same rights as citizens. Reinstate the Bank of Canada as our main banking system and tell the World Bank to shove it. Null and void all free trade agreements (which are not free at all), get out of NATO and the UN. Change our so called Heath System to one that is more inclusive (natural medicines, healing methods, preventative medicine). Negotiate a new treaty(treaties) with aboriginal peoples with their impute, not as dictated by government and no more divide and conquer policies. If Quebec wants to stay in Canada, no more special status and no more provincial laws that go against the laws of the rest of Canada (language laws, etc.)

Short of that, I have no use for Canadian politics as they stand. I have no use for partisan politics or those who engage in them. As far as people who take politics seriously, I find Conservatives to be angry, hostile, more self serving, selfish, self centered and least likeable. Both Liberals and Conservatives are in the pockets of their corporate masters, and the NDP, well they don't have a hope in hell. If the Rhinoceros Party were still going, they might be worth supporting.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
+2
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by El BartoView Post

In short , it is the politics of hate

And you hate that don't you?

I'v had the evolution thing similar to but not exact as Locutus described. As much as Canadian Politics turns my stomach these days I realize finally it must be politics in the end that supplies the fix because the alternative is very expensive. Where do we find good honest men and women who we can trust with the nations business? I'd suggest a priesthood for want of a better name. Men and women who really know their arts and numerals not the bac vat automonotrons that stink of corruption and greed that usually gravitates into office this last few hundred years. There are any number of reliable ancient tests to ensure quality. No I ain't joking.
 
Sal
No Party Affiliation
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

I'm for a total dismantling of our present system - no parties at all, a complete rewrite of the constitution after extensive consultation with citizens, a complete ban on corporate interference in government and take away the right of corporations to hold the same rights as citizens. Reinstate the Bank of Canada as our main banking system and tell the World Bank to shove it. Null and void all free trade agreements (which are not free at all), get out of NATO and the UN. Change our so called Heath System to one that is more inclusive (natural medicines, healing methods, preventative medicine). Negotiate a new treaty(treaties) with aboriginal peoples with their impute, not as dictated by government and no more divide and conquer policies. If Quebec wants to stay in Canada, no more special status and no more provincial laws that go against the laws of the rest of Canada (language laws, etc.)
Short of that, I have no use for Canadian politics as they stand. I have no use for partisan politics or those who engage in them. As far as people who take politics seriously, I find Conservatives to be angry, hostile, more self serving, selfish, self centered and least likeable. Both Liberals and Conservatives are in the pockets of their corporate masters, and the NDP, well they don't have a hope in hell. If the Rhinoceros Party were still going, they might be worth supporting.

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
I like it!!!
 
BaalsTears
+2
#17
Many people express their vision of morality through their political views and actions. Such people often find their vision of morality is so compelling that it justifies any and all political actions without regard to the means used to achieve their compelling vision.

Saul Alinsky was one such man. His book Rules for Radicals laid out a set of principles and tactics, perhaps normative ethics, that are very effective in achieving political power. This is one of his rules...maybe the most important:


“Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.”

Picking a target, freezing, personalizing and polarizing it makes it impossible to effectively govern a polity after having obtained power.

The problem for the USA is that it is necessary to adopt Mr. Alinsky's rules in order to achieve power. That's why Americans demonize each other and are so polarized. The fact that these rules are now incorporated into American political culture means that the American polity will rip itself apart through factionalism. De Tocqueville and others noted the potential for this phenomenon in America. It's too bad it came to this, but it does seem as though every democratic or republican society ultimately commits suicide. Maybe Canada can escape this fate because of its huge size, small population, abundant resources, and tradition of comity.
 
El Barto
+1 / -1
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

And you hate that don't you?

I'v had the evolution thing similar to but not exact as Locutus described. As much as Canadian Politics turns my stomach these days I realize finally it must be politics in the end that supplies the fix because the alternative is very expensive. Where do we find good honest men and women who we can trust with the nations business? I'd suggest a priesthood for want of a better name. Men and women who really know their arts and numerals not the bac vat automonotrons that stink of corruption and greed that usually gravitates into office this last few hundred years. There are any number of reliable ancient tests to ensure quality. No I ain't joking.

I hate it more from the armchair politicians .
 
WLDB
No Party Affiliation
+1
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

I'm for a total dismantling of our present system - no parties at all, a complete rewrite of the constitution after extensive consultation with citizens, a complete ban on corporate interference in government and take away the right of corporations to hold the same rights as citizens. Reinstate the Bank of Canada as our main banking system and tell the World Bank to shove it. Null and void all free trade agreements (which are not free at all), get out of NATO and the UN. Change our so called Heath System to one that is more inclusive (natural medicines, healing methods, preventative medicine). Negotiate a new treaty(treaties) with aboriginal peoples with their impute, not as dictated by government and no more divide and conquer policies. If Quebec wants to stay in Canada, no more special status and no more provincial laws that go against the laws of the rest of Canada (language laws, etc.)

Rather radical and probably doesnt stand a chance of happening. Still, I wouldnt mind seeing something like this happen. We cant even get any real Senate reform much less a complete redesign of the constitution and the way our system "works."

Ive never fully agreed with any one party. I go for the one most in line with my views at the time. Ive voted for three of them and been a member of two so far. There isnt a chance in hell of changing any of them from the outside. To even get a say in the parties you have to get into them. Same with any other political issue. There are a lot more options than the big 3 parties on the ballot. So far every ballot Ive seen has had at least a dozen options. Id have no problem voting for an independent candidate or a party that doesnt stand a chance in hell of winning if I liked and agreed with that candidate/party. If all of the options are too different from what I want or agree with I will spoil my ballot. So far that hasnt happened but Im sure it will someday.
 
Sal
No Party Affiliation
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeperView Post

I have yet to meet someone neutral.....everyone is for something or against something....stating otherwise is suffering from delusion.

I agree with your analysis. Everyone is for something or against something and people have arrived at that decision from their personal experience.

Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

Fear is a powerful motivator.

The most powerful motivator that exists. I do not believe any other motivator can compete.

Quote: Originally Posted by WLDBView Post

Rather radical and probably doesnt stand a chance of happening. Still, I wouldnt mind seeing something like this happen. We cant even get any real Senate reform much less a complete redesign of the constitution and the way our system "works."

Ive never fully agreed with any one party. I go for the one most in line with my views at the time. Ive voted for three of them and been a member of two so far. There isnt a chance in hell of changing any of them from the outside. To even get a say in the parties you have to get into them. Same with any other political issue. There are a lot more options than the big 3 parties on the ballot. So far every ballot Ive seen has had at least a dozen options. Id have no problem voting for an independent candidate or a party that doesnt stand a chance in hell of winning if I liked and agreed with that candidate/party. If all of the options are too different from what I want or agree with I will spoil my ballot. So far that hasnt happened but Im sure it will someday.

I agree with your post. No one seems to represent me. Socially liberal, fiscally conservative. I too have votes for all three parties.

I am jaded regarding political parties and I feel resentful of strong party supporters regardless of sides because I think they support the status quo and that means no change will ever happen. I see them as dead wood and an impediment to change for the good of the individual and the country.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by El BartoView Post

I hate it more from the armchair politicians .

I'm not one of them, I'm an armchair potentate.
 
SLM
No Party Affiliation
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by LocutusView Post

I do not like to be told as a citizen what to do, say, watch, how to speak, what language to speak or whether I can shop on sundays. That sorta thing. Those that try lose points on my scorecard. I'll still rather vote for them though because their rank is higher than that of the next bunch of wankers with my best interests in mind (they say).

I don't much like that sort of thing either. I want government to be there to serve the will of the people, not to put into place their vision of what Canada should be. I want them to legislate, where necessary, and regulate and then stay hands off the rest.

In short I'd like to see a party that actually listens to us and doesn't tell us what it is that we want. I've yet to see any of them do that.

Quote:

Too much control is no good. Too much government interference, control or hand-holding will also score low. I learn more each day but will likely never vote NDP.

I have on at least one occasion voted NDP. While never having been a plan of their platform per se (what there is of it) it was during a time when I was really heavily dissatisfied with the Liberals (this was during the Chretian years) and the Tories had all of 4 seats in the House (or something like that) and this particular candidate I honestly thought would work hard for the riding. They didn't get in though, we got McSquinty's brother.

Quote: Originally Posted by BaalsTearsView Post

Many people express their vision of morality through their political views and actions. Such people often find their vision of morality is so compelling that it justifies any and all political actions without regard to the means used to achieve their compelling vision.
Saul Alinsky was one such man. His book Rules for Radicals laid out a set of principles and tactics, perhaps normative ethics, that are very effective in achieving political power. This is one of his rules...maybe the most important:
“Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.”
Picking a target, freezing, personalizing and polarizing it makes it impossible to effectively govern a polity after having obtained power.
The problem for the USA is that it is necessary to adopt Mr. Alinsky's rules in order to achieve power. That's why Americans demonize each other and are so polarized. The fact that these rules are now incorporated into American political culture means that the American polity will rip itself apart through factionalism. De Tocqueville and others noted the potential for this phenomenon in America. It's too bad it came to this, but it does seem as though every democratic or republican society ultimately commits suicide. Maybe Canada can escape this fate because of its huge size, small population, abundant resources, and tradition of comity.

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
I agree polarization is heavy in American politics, more so than anywhere else it seems. The thing is though that it's not just American's that are polarized about American politics, it seems like everyone else is to. Which is an odd thing when you stop and thing about it. Almost like it's contagious or something.

Quote: Originally Posted by WLDBView Post

Ive never fully agreed with any one party. I go for the one most in line with my views at the time. Ive voted for three of them and been a member of two so far.

So far? Lol. And you're still young. Imagine when you've had 20 years voting under your belt?

Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

I'm not one of them, I'm an armchair potentate.

All hail the armchair.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#23
All western politicians must meet "international community" standards which mean that community comes first and second and the voting western citizen dosn't get to come at all.
 
Cliffy
Free Thinker
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by SalView Post

I
I am jaded regarding political parties and I feel resentful of strong party supporters regardless of sides because I think they support the status quo and that means no change will ever happen. I see them as dead wood and an impediment to change for the good of the individual and the country.

Bingo!

Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

I'm not one of them, I'm an armchair potentate.

I am an impotentate.
 
WLDB
No Party Affiliation
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post


So far? Lol. And you're still young. Imagine when you've had 20 years voting under your belt?

Ive almost got 20 years of following politics under my belt. I was hooked by 10. Followed it a hell of a lot closer than most adults I knew. Neither of my parents ever voted or really paid attention to issues which really annoyed me at the time. I remember having a literal 'facepalm' moment when I was 13 and my father said he had no idea who the premier was...and he has lived in Ontario his whole life.

Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

I agree polarization is heavy in American politics, more so than anywhere else it seems. The thing is though that it's not just American's that are polarized about American politics, it seems like everyone else is to. Which is an odd thing when you stop and thing about it. Almost like it's contagious or something.

Their polarization is really weird considering in practice the Democrats and Republicans dont run things all that differently from one another. Well, not on foreign policy anyway. They are both pretty consistent on that. Domestic stuff is another issue but even then they arent radically different in practice compared to the way they seem to be during campaigns.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
+1
#26
Their polarization has been standardized by lobbying and donations.
 
GreenFish66
#27
I'm an Environmentally Minded Social Conservative ; Non-Partisan...I vote for the Party/People I believe can best lead the Country in the direction I think it should go; at that time.

What ever team has the most of my favorite Players on it...That's the team I root for.

I don't believe any Party or Person should be allowed to stay in power longer than 10 years.

______________________________________

Business People Grow Biz, Make Money...Politicians Talk ****, Grow Budgets. We all Pay for it, one way or another.
( Cynical, Nah...Ok, maybe a little. )_________________________________________

Gov. Is all about Control and Money...Business is all about Money and Control...The rest of us Pay for it, one way or another.
Is All about Power!
I say, Power to the People!
 
SLM
No Party Affiliation
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by WLDBView Post

Ive almost got 20 years of following politics under my belt. I was hooked by 10. Followed it a hell of a lot closer than most adults I knew. Neither of my parents ever voted or really paid attention to issues which really annoyed me at the time. I remember having a literal 'facepalm' moment when I was 13 and my father said he had no idea who the premier was...and he has lived in Ontario his whole life.

That is a facepalm moment.

Quote:

Their polarization is really weird considering in practice the Democrats and Republicans dont run things all that differently from one another. Well, not on foreign policy anyway. They are both pretty consistent on that. Domestic stuff is another issue but even then they arent radically different in practice compared to the way they seem to be during campaigns.

It's kind of like the Hatfields and the McCoys.
 
Tecumsehsbones
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by SLMView Post

That is a facepalm moment.

Why? Seems a lot more sensible than what we often see on this board: people who loudly proclaim that it makes no difference who's in office, and then obsessively follow the parties and personalities whose presence in office they claim makes no difference.
 
damngrumpy
No Party Affiliation
#30
SLM you are right there is no one party to satisfy ones needs, the Conservatives south of
the boarder are deeply influenced by the Social Conservative in the north there is influence
but not as strong. The Liberals are a drifting lot they have some idea of things but they
remind me of the Tories in the late eighties and early nineties. The NDP has gone beyond
being a movement they have become a political party sometimes dysfunctional but a party
now i am not opposed to them for being dysfunctional my God look at the Tories and the
Senate scandal. or the Liberals who went through the several leaders routine and settled
for a face over substance.
The NDP has in my view become more to the right but more negative in their attitudes to
progress. Used to be the NDP was on the cutting edge, Pensions, Medicare and family
allowance and so on, Those were achieved through minority governments.
I like the NDP when it has stable leadership. and sometimes the Tories when they are not
catering to the Reform element or the Wildrose nonsense in Alberta.
The Liberals are a collection of what the rest don't want but in a minority they do well.
If an election were held today I would not vote for the Conservatives nor the Greens and so
I have two choices NDP or the Liberals and I am watching closely. The reason the Tories
are out for me is they went to far dismantling the fabric of our programs for people. Treatment
of seniors and Vets and others. Hope that is a little of what you wanted in this topic
 

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