Soknacki blasts Ford over bad math


mentalfloss
No Party Affiliation
#1
How the mighty have fallen!

David Soknacki blasts Rob Ford over ‘bad math’ as he warns Scarborough subways will push city’s debt to $7B

Toronto’s debt will double in eight years if Mayor Rob Ford fulfills his promise to turn current light rail lines into subways, David Soknacki, the mayoral contender, warned Friday.

“Rob Ford talks a lot about respect for taxpayers, but it starts with respect for basic math,” Mr. Soknacki told reporters at the Hilton Hotel. “Voters deserve the real numbers.”

Mr. Soknacki, a budget chief under former mayor David Miller, said that, based on an estimate of $400-million per kilometre, building subways on current Scarborough Rapid Transit line, on Sheppard Avenue and on Finch Avenue West would push the debt to $7 billion by 2022-23.

“If Rob Ford is in the unlikely position to deliver on his subway promises, he will double the city’s debt,” Mr. Soknacki said.

The average Toronto home pays about $300 a year in debt servicing charges, Mr. Soknacki added.

“The average burden per household would go to $600 or $700 just to service unnecessary expenses,” Mr. Soknacki said. Mr. Soknacki said his math includes assumptions that Ottawa and Queen’s Park would fund Mr. Ford’s subway dreams to the same amount that they are funding the Scarborough subway extension.

Mr. Soknacki, a former Scarborough councillor who owns a business that extracts flavours from spices, repeated his plan to scrap the subway extension for Scarborough. He wants to return to the seven-stop light rail line previously approved by city council.

The city could plow the $1-billion in cash savings into the Downtown Relief Line, which is a plan for a loop linking the city’s east and west ends with a curved line running through the city’s core, Mr. Soknacki said.

At present, city council and the province have approved an extension of the Bloor-Danforth subway line three stops into Scarborough to replace the SRT. The city and province have also approved light rail lines on Eglinton, Finch and Sheppard avenues. Mr. Ford has said he wants to convert the Sheppard and Finch LRT lines to subways.

On Friday Amin Massoudi, a spokesman for the mayor, responded by email to requests for comment on Mr. Soknacki’s math.

“I can only comment on what has been brought before Council and approved to date. As far as we are concerned, the rest of their claims are hypothetical,” Mr. Massoudi wrote. “Regarding the Scarborough subway, according to finance staff, based on council-approved project funding plan, the city would issue slightly over $500 million in debt during the construction of the $3.5-billion Scarborough subway project. The city’s current total outstanding debt is about $3-billion.”

A smattering of reporters attended Mr. Soknacki’s news conference. For the first time since entering the race in January, Mr. Soknacki wore a tie. When Mr. Soknacki addressed the Toronto Region Board of Trade in January, at least one guest commented on his open-necked shirt.

Asked about the candidate’s decision to wear a tie, Supriya Dwivedi, Mr. Soknacki’s spokeswoman, said that he was on his way to Open Data Day, a gathering of provincial and city techies to find new ways to share government data. Open Data Day takes place today in a provincial building at 900 Bay Street.

David Soknacki blasts Rob Ford over ‘bad math’ as he warns Scarborough subways will push city’s debt to $7B
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
#2
How much will it cost in 20 years - because we all know cancer spreads
 
tay
#3
Ford being faulty on his Math with the result costing taxpayers more is not new....




Ford deliberately crafting a faulty budget
 
L Gilbert
No Party Affiliation
#4
Wonder what Fathead's reply will be.
 
IdRatherBeSkiing
+1
#5
So I am to trust somebody who did budget's for David "How's my hair?" Miller -- the king of city deficits and debt?
 
mentalfloss
No Party Affiliation
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiingView Post

So I am to trust somebody who did budget's for David "How's my hair?" Miller -- the king of city deficits and debt?

I think it says more when that guy is more financially responsible than Ford.
 
BornRuff
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiingView Post

So I am to trust somebody who did budget's for David "How's my hair?" Miller -- the king of city deficits and debt?

You can check the math yourself if you want.

It is pretty simple to understand though. Subways are very expensive to build.
 
mentalfloss
No Party Affiliation
#8
But think of how many ppl will be going to Scarberia town centre.
 
Walter
+1
#9
Judging how development follows subway lines the City of Toronto will lose money in term of tax revenue if they don't build the subway line.


Could Soknacked be saying this because he is running against Ford for mayor?
 
mentalfloss
No Party Affiliation
#10
No - everyone has been reporting that the numbers don't add up.
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
+1
#11
When do they ever in the world of politics and finance?
 
petros
#12
ALRT is the best way to go.
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
+2
#13
...until that first global warming snowstorm blocks the line. Planning for today isn't really planning....

Here's an example of planning ahead....

Prince Edward Viaduct - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
petros
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolfView Post

...until that first global warming snowstorm blocks the line.

Vancouver's SkySlug has no issues with snow or Calgary or Edmonton.
 
BornRuff
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by WalterView Post

Judging how development follows subway lines the City of Toronto will lose money in term of tax revenue if they don't build the subway line.


Could Soknacked be saying this because he is running against Ford for mayor?

Lol, could Rob Ford be making promises that we can't afford because he is running for Mayor? Critiquing your opponent's platform is supposed to be a basic part of any political campaign.

Development doesn't necessarily follow subway lines. The plan for the subway in Scarborough is mostly through mature single family residential areas, and the residents would descend on city hall with torches and pitchforks if they tries to rezone the area for dense commercial or residential development.

But, lets just pretend that isn't an issue. Ford's own administration has studied this, trying to use future increased tax revenues, as well as special development charges, to fund subway construction. The findings were that it would only cover a fraction of the cost.

So Toronto would not lose money by not building these Subways.

Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolfView Post

...until that first global warming snowstorm blocks the line. Planning for today isn't really planning....

It is not reasonable to put everything underground because we may have a few days of the year when snow gets in the way of transit. We live in Canada, that is going to happen from time to time.

This year, the problems were mostly caused by the cold, not the snow itself. The cold affected the old streetcars' pneumatic air lines that operate the breaks and doors. The newer cars that they are rolling out use hydraulics and electronic in their place and are much more reliable.
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
+3
#16  Top Rated Post
I'm all for stopping Toronto sprawl onto farmland - and I know it's not going to happen. In 20 years, they'll need better rapid transit. What's a subway going to cost in 2034?
 
BornRuff
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolfView Post

I'm all for stopping Toronto sprawl onto farmland - and I know it's not going to happen. In 20 years, they'll need better rapid transit. What's a subway going to cost in 2034?

The question isn't if we should build subways or not. It is about where we should build subways.

Subways are not appropriate to tackle the issue of sprawl. It makes no sense to dig tunnels through areas where there is space above ground, and subway service is too slow to move people in from far flung burbs. That is what systems like Go Trains are for.
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
#18
GO trains can only travel on existing corridors - just like subways. Both are expensive ways to ease up on parking your car downtown - only the subway can be buried as the need arises.
 
petros
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolfView Post

GO trains can only travel on existing corridors - just like subways. Both are expensive ways to ease up on parking your car downtown - only the subway can be buried as the need arises.

Elevated like Skytrain in Vancouver. Not a single level crossing anywhere along the line.

Winnipeg has bus trains. Odd but it's working.
 
BornRuff
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Winnipeg has bus trains. Odd but it's working.

Those are just articulated buses. The TTC uses them on some routes as well.
 
petros
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by BornRuffView Post

Those are just articulated buses. The TTC uses them on some routes as well.

I should have clarified the elevated transit ways they're calling rapid transit.
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
#22
So's SRT ... but it's not all that rapid
 
BornRuff
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolfView Post

So's SRT ... but it's not all that rapid

If they are both grade separated, LRT and Subways travel at essentially the same speed.
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
#24
...and if an LRT is buried, it's a subway....
 
BornRuff
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolfView Post

...and if an LRT is buried, it's a subway....

Well, no, it is a different vehicle.

That said, grade separated doesn't necessarily mean burred. The SRT is grade separated, so is the Sky Train.
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
#26
I haven't seen a lot of grade crossings on the Yonge, Bloor-Danforth or Spadina lines either - and none of them are completely buried.
 
BornRuff
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolfView Post

I haven't seen a lot of grade crossings on the Yonge, Bloor-Danforth or Spadina lines either - and none of them are completely buried.

What is your point?
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
+1
#28
You ask that a lot....

The point is: whether it's LRT or conventional subway train, right of way has to be secured before developers get in there and demand sky-high prices for easement. The "subway" part (burying the line) can be done later with demand for crowding space.
 
BornRuff
+1
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolfView Post

You ask that a lot....

The point is: whether it's LRT or conventional subway train, right of way has to be secured before developers get in there and demand sky-high prices for easement. The "subway" part (burying the line) can be done later with demand for crowding space.

I ask that when you respond with non sequiturs, such as this post.
 
lone wolf
Free Thinker
+1
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by BornRuffView Post

I ask that when you respond with non sequiturs, such as this post.

Are you trying to make a point or score one because you fail miserably at both....
 

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