Thousands of same-sex marriages performed in Canada may not be legal: report


mentalfloss
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Thousands of same-sex marriages performed in Canada may not be legal: report


The government of Canada is reportedly arguing that thousands of same-sex couples who have travelled to this country to get married are not legally wed.

The Globe and Mail reported Thursday that the government is contending that non-Canadians gays and lesbians who have been married here since 2004 are only considered married under this country’s laws if gay marriage is also recognized in their home country or state.

The paper is basing its report on court documents filed in a Toronto test case. It was launched by a lesbian couple seeking a divorce. They were wed in Toronto in 2005, and cannot be identified under a court order.

A Department of Justice lawyer reportedly argued the marriage was not legal in Canada because the couple could not have been legally married in Florida or England, where the two live.

Same-sex marriage in Canada was effectively legalized in 2004, and the next year the Liberal government passed the bill to make it a law.

More than 15,000 same-sex marriages have taken place since then, the Globe reported, with more than 5,000 involving couples from outside Canada.

The Ontario Superior Court is reportedly set to rule on the couple’s divorce application next month.

Thousands of gay marriages performed in Canada may not be legal, Ottawa says: report | News | National Post
 
WLDB
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Interesting legal question. I suppose it can happen from time to time that a marriage is performed illegally. However why was it allowed to happen on this scale if it really is illegal?
 
Ariadne
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I don't get it. If they were married in Canada, but the countries they've lived in don't recognize same sex marriage, then what difference does it make. In the countries where they live, they are not married ... and it doesn't sound like these people have any ties to Canada ... other than taking advantage of one law, so if they live elsewhere they're not married, which is what they want. Why don't they simply carry on with their lives - separately.
 
mentalfloss
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Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

I don't get it. If they were married in Canada, but the countries they've lived in don't recognize same sex marriage, then what difference does it make. In the countries where they live, they are not married ... and it doesn't sound like these people have any ties to Canada ... other than taking advantage of one law, so if they live elsewhere they're not married, which is what they want. Why don't they simply carry on with their lives - separately.

Well they come here to get hitched because they can't at home.

It's kind of the point for why they come over in the first place. They don't even get any financial benefit out of it, it's just to honour the tradition, I guess.

But it's silly to say - "if it's illegal in your country, then it's illegal here".
 
DaSleeper
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Should be easier to get an annulement when there is no progeny involved...
 
Ariadne
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Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

Well they come here to get hitched because they can't at home.

It's kind of the point for why they come over in the first place. They don't even get any financial benefit out of it, it's just to honour the tradition, I guess.

But it's silly to say - "if it's illegal in your country, then it's illegal here".

If they live in Canada, then certainly they should divorce in Canada ... but it sounds like they have never lived in Canada but only came here for marriage. By law, in the countries where they live, they are not married ... so why come here to get divorced ... unless they want to remarry someone else here in Canada?
 
Goober
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Quote: Originally Posted by WLDBView Post

Interesting legal question. I suppose it can happen from time to time that a marriage is performed illegally. However why was it allowed to happen on this scale if it really is illegal?

I see the logic behind it.
As to why it happened. Recall that the law was passed and many provinces, feds had to amend other laws to bring those laws into compliance- Custody - support etc.
 
mentalfloss
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Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

If they live in Canada, then certainly they should divorce in Canada ... but it sounds like they have never lived in Canada but only came here for marriage. By law, in the countries where they live, they are not married ... so why come here to get divorced ... unless they want to remarry someone else here in Canada?

They don't have to marry, re-marry or divorce anyone from Canada.

They are just relegated (or were at least) to coming to Canada to get married themselves.

Which is just fine.

+1 for tourism
+1 for wedding industry
+1 for homosexuals socially repressed in their own countries
 
Goober
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Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

They don't have to marry, re-marry or divorce anyone from Canada.

They are just relegated (or were at least) to coming to Canada to get married themselves.

Which is just fine.

+1 for tourism
+1 for wedding industry
+1 for homosexuals socially repressed in their own countries

Canadians who are married in another country by a person not legally able to do so in that country are not considered married by Canadian Law.

So the case law is similar is it not?
 
karrie
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One little nitpicky terminology point.

Something being 'not legally recognized', does not equal 'illegal'.
 
mentalfloss
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Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

Canadians who are married in another country by a person not legally able to do so in that country are not considered married by Canadian Law.

So the case law is similar is it not?

Hmm.. maybe I'm not reading this right.

Two gay guys come to Canada with some friends and get married here, then go back home to Motherland and tell the rest of their friends they've been hitched. Motherland doesn't recognize they are married, but friends and family are happy.

They have to suffer with Motherland's silly policies, but at least have the freedom to enjoy their social event elsewhere.

This is how I understand the situation should be.
 
Goober
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Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

Hmm.. maybe I'm not reading this right.

Two gay guys come to Canada with some friends and get married here, then go back home to Motherland and tell the rest of their friends they've been hitched. Motherland doesn't recognize they are married, but friends and family are happy.

They have to suffer with Motherland's silly policies, but at least have the freedom to enjoy their social event elsewhere.

This is how I understand the situation should be.

Now are these people Canadian Citizens - Landed Immigrants? Or as you say above. Canada is only recognizing case law as I mentioned earlier.
They married here, not recognized in their own country, return to Canada for a divorce? Why is the question to ask.
 
mentalfloss
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Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

Now are these people Canadian Citizens - Landed Immigrants? Or as you say above.

They're people on vacation. They came to Canada to get hitched because it's the only country where they could do that.. but wait.. since 2004 we've now decided they can't because Motherland says so, lol

Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

They married here, not recognized in their own country, return to Canada for a divorce?

Well, yea, they would have to return here to officially end their Canadian marriage, but they may just say screw it and stay at home.

The marriage and divorce are simply symbolic for all intents and purposes.
 
Goober
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Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

They're people on vacation. They came to Canada to get hitched because it's the only country where they could do that.. but wait.. since 2004 we've now decided they can't because Motherland says so, lol



Well, yea, they would have to return here to officially end their Canadian marriage, but they may just say screw it and stay at home.

The marriage and divorce are simply symbolic for all intents and purposes.

Why should we bog down our justice system because they are into symbolism.
 
mentalfloss
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Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

Why should we bog down our justice system because they are into symbolism.

Why does the system have to be bogged down by an inconsequential freedom?
 
JLM
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I'm wondering if (for all intents and purposes) LEGAL marriage isn't a moot point these days. I think the income tax implications are all gone and settlements to do with relationship breakdowns seem to be similar for both marriage and common law.
 
Goober
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Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

Why does the system have to be bogged down by an inconsequential freedom?

What happens when one wants assests, spousal support etc. Not recognized in their own country. Bogged down. For what purpose?
Unless all divorces by gays are without any conflict or anger. But I do not think so.
 
lone wolf
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#18
Quote: Originally Posted by WLDBView Post

Interesting legal question. I suppose it can happen from time to time that a marriage is performed illegally. However why was it allowed to happen on this scale if it really is illegal?

Worked for tourism didn't it?
 
mentalfloss
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Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

What happens when one wants assests, spousal support etc. Not recognized in their own country. Bogged down. For what purpose?

What bogged down?

As long as they live in that country, they don't get it.
 
Goober
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#20
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

What bogged down?

As long as they live in that country, they don't get it.

It still has to go thru courts - It takes up assets that can be used elsewheres. If they are looking for symbols, join a band.
 
DaSleeper
#21
Reason for divorce.....community property????
 
mentalfloss
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Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

It still has to go thru courts - It takes up assets that can be used elsewheres. If they are looking for symbols, join a band.

I highly doubt the few thousand marriages that have been enacted since 2004 have bogged down anything.

And that's besides the point anyway. We're talking about the context for why the courts argue this freedom should be given away. It's silliness to say people can't marry here because they can't marry in their home country as the only point of contention. I'm sure there are other variables, but that's not a good reason.
 
WLDB
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Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

I'm wondering if (for all intents and purposes) LEGAL marriage isn't a moot point these days. I think the income tax implications are all gone and settlements to do with relationship breakdowns seem to be similar for both marriage and common law.

Indeed. I have no intention of ever marrying. The whole institution seems to serve no purpose anymore. If others want to do it, go ahead.
 
mentalfloss
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Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

I'm wondering if (for all intents and purposes) LEGAL marriage isn't a moot point these days. I think the income tax implications are all gone and settlements to do with relationship breakdowns seem to be similar for both marriage and common law.

I've been in a common-law relationship for 4 years now and we both have a house and a kid. Neither of us have any intention of leaving the other and our commitment gets stronger by the day.

When you consider how expensive most weddings are, I'm not sure why anyone gets married anymore these days.

Looks like the big chief has been alerted..


Same-sex marriage in Canada will not be revisited, Harper says

The Conservative government is reportedly arguing that thousands of same-sex couples who got married in Canada are not legally wed.

However, while speaking in Halifax on Thursday, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said his government has no plans of revisiting the issue of same-sex marriage.

“We have no intention of further opening or reopening this issue,” he said.

The Globe and Mail reported Thursday that the government is contending in a Toronto court case that non-Canadian gays and lesbians who have been married here since 2004 are only considered married under this country’s laws if gay marriage is also recognized in their home country or state.

Harper admitted he was unaware of the details of the case currently before the courts. “I will be asking officials to provide me with more details on this particular case.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/01...d-harper-says/
Last edited by mentalfloss; Jan 12th, 2012 at 10:33 AM..
 
Retired_Can_Soldier
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#25
Who cares? Be married! Don't be married. The only reason I married my wife was because the Canadian Army would not allow us to move into Married Quarters, they have since changed that backward thinking.

I think the legal part of the whole thing is just a lot of bureaucratic hogwash. If you love someone and choose to spend the rest of your life with them the piece of paper is just that.
 
mentalfloss
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holy crap, this is gaining more traction than I first thought..


Former Toronto mayor decries Ottawa’s ‘sneaky’ reversal on gay marriage

Opposition grew swiftly Thursday to the Justice Department’s position that thousands of same-sex couples who married in Canada since 2004 are not legally wed despite efforts by Prime Minister Stephen Harper to quell the controversy.

Former Toronto mayor David Miller said the Harper government has embarrassed Canada in front of the world by upsetting the lives of same-sex couples who flocked to the city for marriages they were denied in their home countries.

“I'm shocked,” Mr. Miller said in an interview. “I'm saddened and, as a Canadian who does a lot of work abroad, I'm very embarrassed.”

Mr. Miller, a lawyer at the Toronto firm of Aird Berliss who is concurrently teaching law at New York University, said it was “sneaky and underhanded” of the federal government to say foreigners who married in same sex ceremonies in Canada are not legally married.

“I was so proud to be the mayor of a city that had the first same sex marriages,” Mr. Miller said. “It made a strong statement that everybody is welcome in our country.”

Speaking to reporters in Halifax, however, Mr. Harper attempted to put a lid on the controversy by saying the issue is not on the agenda for his majority Conservatives. “We have no intention of further re-opening or opening this issue,” the Prime Minister told reporters when asked about The Globe and Mail’s report.

The reversal of federal policy is revealed in a document filed in a Toronto test case launched recently by a lesbian couple seeking a divorce. Wed in Toronto in 2005, the couple have been told they cannot divorce because they were never really married – a Department of Justice lawyer says their marriage is not legal in Canada since they could not have lawfully wed in Florida or England, where the two partners reside.

“In terms of the specifics of the story this morning, I will admit to you that I am not aware of the details,” Mr. Harper said. “This I gather is a case before the courts where Canadian lawyers have taken a particular position based on the law and I will be asking officials to provide me more details”

Mr. Miller scoffed at any notion the federal position could be a “technicality” devised by a particular federal prosecutor. He said it is inconceivable the federal move was not made with the full knowledge of the Prime Minister.

“I ran a major government – the sixth largest government in Canada – and I can tell you that this kind of decision would not happen without the Prime Minister being briefed,” Mr. Miller said.

He said that, in conjunction with the government pulling Canada out of the Kyoto Accord and its recent denunciation of environmentalists who oppose an Alberta oil-sands pipeline project, the rescinding of same sex marriages has given the country an international black eye.

“Environmentalists are not welcome,” Mr. Miller said. “Now gays and lesbians are not welcome. Who else isn't welcome? It reflects intolerance.”

And as news of the federal about-face spread, same-sex couples reacted angrily to what many perceived as a betrayal.

“I'm pretty mad at Canada and at Mr. Harper,” said Kathy Heggemeier, a retiree in Portsmouth, Va., who came to Toronto in July 2003 to marry Elaine, her partner of 28 years.

Ms. Heggemeier said she turned to her spouse this morning and saying: “Well honey, I guess we may not be married after all.”

While same-sex marriages are not legal in Virginia or in North Carolina, where the couple lived previously, Ms. Heggemeier said they have been able nonetheless to use their Canadian marriage certificate to obtain spousal benefits from employers and be recognized as a couple by their doctor.

“I'm angry but more than anything I'm sad because what I see is another craven politician going after a minority,” she said.

Kevin Bourassa, a Toronto resident whose legal battle to wed Joe Varnell was instrumental in legalizing gay marriages in Canada, cautioned that the federal government's argument remains at this point a legal opinion.

“Sanity will prevail,” he said.

At the same time, Mr. Bourassa expressed dismay at the latest development. He recalled Americans gay couples singing O Canada when they came to Toronto to get married, starting in June 2003.

“They were so proud of this country. I wonder what they feel now,” Mr. Bourassa said.

The government’s hard line has cast sudden doubt on the rights and legal status of couples who wed in Canada after a series of court decisions opened the floodgates to same-sex marriage. The mechanics of determining issues such as tax status, employment benefits and immigration have been thrown into legal limbo.

Same-sex marriage was effectively legalized by the courts in 2004. A year later, the Liberal government of then-prime-minister Paul Martin passed a bill enshrining it in law. More than 5,000 of the approximately 15,000 same-sex marriages that have taken place since then involved couples from the United States or other countries.

Former Toronto mayor decries Ottawa's reversal on gay marriage - The Globe and Mail
 
JLM
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Quote: Originally Posted by WLDBView Post

Indeed. I have no intention of ever marrying. The whole institution seems to serve no purpose anymore. If others want to do it, go ahead.

You mean you don't care if your kids are bastards!

Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

I've been in a common-law relationship for 4 years now and we both have a house and a kid. Neither of us have any intention of leaving the other and our commitment gets stronger by the day.

When you consider how expensive most weddings are, I'm not sure why anyone gets married anymore these days.

One more misnomer, some people think a marriage requires a wedding. We got married, had supper in town, went to the legion and got drunk, that was 39 years ago.
 
Retired_Can_Soldier
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Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

holy crap, this is gaining more traction than I first thought..


Former Toronto mayor decries Ottawa’s ‘sneaky’ reversal on gay marriage

Well if Dave Miller says so....

 
mentalfloss
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Live discussion up on G&M about this..

Discussion: The federal government's reversal of policy on same-sex foreign couples - The Globe and Mail
 
IdRatherBeSkiing
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Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

Well they come here to get hitched because they can't at home.

It's kind of the point for why they come over in the first place. They don't even get any financial benefit out of it, it's just to honour the tradition, I guess.

But it's silly to say - "if it's illegal in your country, then it's illegal here".

There are always 2 parts to a marriage, legal and ceremony (including religious ones or just the walking up the ailse). If they are not legally married in their home state, they can walk their separate ways and consider their marriage here as ceremonial.

I have no idea which way the lawyers would lean. We will no doubt find out.
 
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