Status of Native Canadians. Canada needs to discuss this.

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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I think this doesn't get discussed nearly enough as it should. I was taught, and alwayz believed that the colour of someone's skin does not matter. Period. It's just a detail. They is good and bad in all races.

Why is it then, that native Canadians have a different set of laws regarding their status?
I realize that it's not a perfect society and that natives definitely face racism, and prejudice, and that's probably the reason why it's justified giving them benefits.....

--But, --

Does this not support the idea that they are different? That the colour of their skin does matter? Shouldn't our government set the example and say "All men are equal, one law for all" ?

I also dislike the idea that this is probably considered a racist's view, when it fact it is the exact opposite. I've had several native friends over my life. I have openly discussed this them.

Most disagreed strongly with this view, saying bottom line -"we lost our land"

Some disagreed, but could see and understand that viewpoint.

Only a couple agreed with me.

I think as a nation we should discuss this. I really hope there are some native Canadian's willing to post.:smile:
 
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In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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dude, what's with the funky colorful text in 30 different sizes. takes away from the post.

You have no idea how stoopid I feel right now. I hate myself. I'm such a loser. Never again, will I abuse the pretty little buttons that change the font size and colour, unless I feel I absolutely must in order to give more prominence to one part of my post.
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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OMG, I'm looking at my OP, What's was I thinking? That looks horrible. I might just have to delete this profile and start again under a new alias. Hello RustyShackleford. I'm so embarrassed. I think I figured out why I've been doing that. It's not a good idea to smoke pot all day and then go post thoughts on your favorite forum.;):roll:
 
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In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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I can't stop thinking about how freaking dumb I am. Please, don't reply to my stupid thoughts. I'm not going to write anything for awhile. I'll just read what you guys post on other threads. Obviously I have a lot to learn.
 

B00Mer

Keep Calm and Carry On
Sep 6, 2008
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WTF!!
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
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People who say race doesn't matter are being naive. Race shouldn't matter is more accurate. In reality, Canadian natives have some of the worst living conditions, services and health outcomes of any group in our society. We can't ignore that just so we can claim to be colour blind. We shouldn't be ignoring the status of any at risk group either. Those with disabilities have special services. So do the elderly. So do new Canadians. None of that is discriminatory.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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To be fair Natives have the worst living conditions because they choose to.

Not that they choose to live in squalor, but that they choose to continue to fight for their right to be Microstates (as exist in Europe in places like Monaco, Andorra, San Marino etc)

This boils down to the nature of why they aren't "equal", in that they really in many cases are supposed to be either sovereign or at best Crown Dependancies (see the Bailwick of Guernsey, the Bailwick of Jersey and Isle of Mann)

Being part of Canada was never something they agreed to, but reality has sunk in that they are, and this mishmash of laws causes the problem.

If they just said tommorow "We are just becoming regular canadians", then their living conditions would improve immediatly, but it would mean giving up alot of the rights they are owed.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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To be fair Natives have the worst living conditions because they choose to.

Not that they choose to live in squalor, but that they choose to continue to fight for their right to be Microstates (as exist in Europe in places like Monaco, Andorra, San Marino etc)


To be fair when you start a fair unbiased statement it's best to drop the qualifiers so you don't sound like a seller of cheap used cars. Nobody chooses genocide and forced assimilation and endemic poverty. You are an insulting man Zzarchov. Thier choice to fight for thier identity remains an honourable and correct course of action. Or is that reserved as the exclusive path of others similarly afflicted but deemed worthy by unseen and manufactured criteria?
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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They choose it all the time, usually not to be the target of it, but alot of the natives in Canada (especially in my region) are immigrants as sure as my family, united empire loyalists fleeing the American revolution.

Most first nations were promised what amounts to Suzernity but they haven't received it, so their descendants keep fighting for it.

Fighting leads to suffering so they make a choice, keep fighting and live and squalor until (And if) you win, or give up and assimilate and see your quality of life improve.

Im not saying either choice is good, but its a choice they and millions of other people accross the world take.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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I live my life with a neverending place in my heart that is 'ashamed and guilty', and I carry
that feeling directly from my ancestors in england. The treatment of the first nations people was 'horrible', and continued for many years, stripping the 'true canadians' of their
pride and rights.

They lived like they wanted before any of us came here, and they should choose how they
want to live always, this is their country.

We forced them into the position and conditions they live now, and then we criticize
them for living that way.

They are not perfect, but we certainly are not either.

We are not better than them, and we should have given them more respect and 'room' to
do what they do, and not push ourselves over top of them, and crowd them out.

I have heard it all, all the criticizm about them, from a to z, sitting around a table with my
own relatives, and I was always at odds with everyone at that table, argueing for the
first nations.

What's done is done, and the outcome is mixed, as some buckle under from the domination and can't recover, and others find their way back up, and I applaud them,
as I wonder how I would have reacted, had I been treated the way we treated them long ago, 'not' sure about that, but it saddens me, and always will.
 

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
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I agree talloola. The way the indigenous people of Canada have been treated is contemptible to say the least. Saying the native people are responsible for their plight is a tried and true method of the hegemon to keep people under their thumb. It is an ugly, ugly thing we do to the natives in this country. Any act of altruism we extend always has the purpose to separate, subjugate, and crush. We have not conquered the native people but instead we ignore our treaties with them. The native Americans in Canada are an ignored and marginalized people.

I think we should honour King George's decree (still law) and give them all the land west of the Rocky mountains. What we want we should pay for. If the indigenous people want to stay part of Canada great, if not, we'll have a new country.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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The problem becomes "who is indigenous"

Take the Haudenosaunee, They are first nations, but they aren't native canadians.

Do they get the land King George granted them as Immigrant Colonials? Or do the Huron pushed into Reserves in Quebec get their land back the Haudenosaunee can be deported to the USA?

Even if you think "colonials" are guilty for their ancestors crimes, What about all the people who paid their immigration fee and came here long after the Natives had been displaced?

Should a new immigrant give up the house he's sunk everything into because of some treaty between the natives and England from long before he arrived?

My solution is to go to all the reserves and make them Crown Dependancies, let them run their own affairs.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
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Right or wrong (& I'm sure someone is going to tell me it's wrong), I live out on the prairies,
and we're hammered with this topic almost continually in the media. When I say "we're," I'm
talking about everyone not in politics...Native or otherwise. I try not to but this is what happens
now. This topic comes up and I just tune it out. Hell, I'm on this thread by choice and as I read
down through the postings, I can feel myself tuning out. Voices on this subject just start sounding
like the Teacher from "Peanuts." (Wa-wa-wah-wan-wa-wah....)
 

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
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My solution is to go to all the reserves and make them Crown Dependancies, let them run their own affairs.

I like your solution but I'm not sure what you mean by Crown Dependencies; "running their own affairs" implies a certain amount of autonomy. If a reservation wishes to leave Canada that should be a choice available to them. The only reason to limit that choice is if we wish to marginalize them or feel we can't entice them to stay. Keeping them within Canada is the job of the federal government and means of limiting liberty isn't a method for this century.

Also a great amount of land has been unlawfully taken from the native peoples and that needs to be addressed. I don't think the amount of time that has elapsed since the crime is significant except if we wish to use it as an excuse to commit the crime ourselves. By ignoring the original crime, that is the treaties we made then broke, we are only continuing the crime. Time itself cannot reset the clock so that "now" is too late and so no crime has been committed; that is a fallacy since it is a crime still being committed.
 
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talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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The problem becomes "who is indigenous"

Take the Haudenosaunee, They are first nations, but they aren't native canadians.

Do they get the land King George granted them as Immigrant Colonials? Or do the Huron pushed into Reserves in Quebec get their land back the Haudenosaunee can be deported to the USA?

Even if you think "colonials" are guilty for their ancestors crimes, What about all the people who paid their immigration fee and came here long after the Natives had been displaced?

Should a new immigrant give up the house he's sunk everything into because of some treaty between the natives and England from long before he arrived?

My solution is to go to all the reserves and make them Crown Dependancies, let them run their own affairs.

Everyone, but the first nations people are 'immigrants', whatever is decided by others,
re: first nations rights, should be followed by everyone, doesn't matter where you came
from. If there is a decision to grant them their rightful treaties and rights, we all have
to step back and honour that.
Sure they can run their affairs, 'they did that before everyone came here and pushed them out of the way', but they have rights and treaties, that have never been honoured,
and they should be.
 

Liberalman

Senate Member
Mar 18, 2007
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If natives want change then they must work the system for that change.

For years natives have been able to go to universities for free because they were promised this in their treaties.

The natives became doctors, lawyers, engineers, business execs and so on.

They have what it takes to create change.

A lot of natives are entering municipal, provincial, and federal politics and they are becoming a driving force in this country.

But like any society they got their radicals that like to close down highways and rail lines.

If you look at the Chinese and the East Indians they skip the welfare office and go directly into their communities and go into businesses or get any type of jobs so they can build their wealth so that they can make positive changes.

In Toronto there are five areas that could be called Chinatown. These areas are not poor areas but higher classed communities.

East Indians live in a town just outside of Toronto called Brampton.

As Prime Minister Harper said these are nations within a nation.

The natives can do the same.

The natives are moving in the right direction by setting up businesses on their land like the highly successful casinos, which is bringing in hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The natives have to expand and set up other businesses and create more wealth.

In this society money talk, which means if you got wealth, people will listen.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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Everyone, but the first nations people are 'immigrants', whatever is decided by others,
re: first nations rights, should be followed by everyone, doesn't matter where you came
from. If there is a decision to grant them their rightful treaties and rights, we all have
to step back and honour that.
Sure they can run their affairs, 'they did that before everyone came here and pushed them out of the way', but they have rights and treaties, that have never been honoured,
and they should be.

Actually many of the First Nations ARE immigrants,

the Haudenosaunee Imigrated here from their land in New York. They are Immigrants just as sure as the Irish who left their ancestral homeland to settle in Canada, or the French of anyone else.

They came here having pushed out another group from their homeland, who are now stuck in Quebec (having been put on a reserve there)

Just because they were natives SOMEWHERE doesn't mean anything, everyone can trace their lineage to be indigineous somewhere. That doesn't mean their rights trump others either.

The English are the first nations people of England, The French to France and the Germans to Germany, does that mean people whos ancestors settled their later (from Africa, South Asia or East Asia) should be treated as immigrants in the land of their birth?



@ Scott Free:

Lookup Crown Dependancies, see: Isle of Man, Bailwick of Jersey and Bailwick of Guerney (The Channel Islands)