Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 10,273 
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
March 20th, 2008, 10:54 AM
Peace or Walking with Warriors
by Kim Petersen / March 20th, 2008
But Canadian troops shed any pretense to peacekeeping, in 1993, when members of the Canadian Airborne Regiment tortured Somali children and killed 16-year-old Shidane Arone.2
Since the Afghanistan “mission” began in 2002, 81 Canadian soldiers and one Canadian diplomat have been killed. The latest fatality has been described as “a committed warrior” by lt.-col. Dave Corbould. Corbould opined, “He was someone we can all emulate. He represented the warrior spirit 100 per cent.”3
Is the warrior what Canadians should emulate? One definition of a warrior is “a person habitually engaged in warfare.”4. Is Rambo to be emulated over persons committed to peace, such as a Mohandas Gandhi or an Albert Einstein?
Canadian chief of defense [sic] staff, General Rick Hillier weighed in: “I’m a little uncomfortable with the term warrior. I’m even more uncomfortable with the term peacekeeper. I’m neither of those; I’m simply a soldier.”5
Hillier is unequivocal about the role of a soldier: “We are the Canadian Forces, and our job is to be able to kill people.”6 [italics added] The job is not to protect people, it is to kill people — not defense.
Of the slain Canadian warrior, regimental sgt.-maj. Brian Semenko said, “He was really dedicated to the idea of serving overseas. He felt the best way to serve was to do it overseas. His idea was not to give candy to children, but to kill insurgents.”
A human who prefers to kill other humans to the non-violent joy of bringing smiles to the faces of children. Is that how Canadians are to serve? By killing?
Brig.-gen. Guy Laroche said, “We have lost a brother and a fine soldier who answered a call of duty one last time.”
Why not hail those people who struggle for peace. Is not the struggle for peace — an end to war and killing — the greater “call of duty”?
Canadian prime minister Stephen Harper lauded the fallen Canadian as “an exceptionally brave soldier who deserves the support and gratitude of all Canadians.”
No mention of Afghan gratitude is made.
Canadians were at one time smug that they could not be saddled with a George W. Bush-type “war president” like their neighbors across the border. However, Harper pursues a neoconservative agenda like Bush. Canadians have no reason to gloat.
Propagandizing Canadians
Hillier spoke of the public speaking training the military gets. “When I was in Afghanistan, we had people from the BBC come in to help us create the right perceptions, because perception is reality.”7 The CBC reporting plays into the perceptual reality spun by the Department of National Defense [sic].
Hillier sees it as a duty. He declared, “When a soldier steps on foreign soil in a high-risk environment, every single Canadian should be walking with him or her.”8
As for walking with soldiers, the pacifist Einstein was quoted:
Peace or Walking with Warriors
by Kim Petersen / March 20th, 2008
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.The Canadian state-run media CBC is portraying an aggressive image of Canadians. Canada has pretty much abandoned its vaunted image as a nation of peace. This is far removed from the day when former Canadian prime minister Pierre Trudeau embarked on a peace initiative to end the Cold War, drawing the ire of Washington.1
– Albert Einstein
But Canadian troops shed any pretense to peacekeeping, in 1993, when members of the Canadian Airborne Regiment tortured Somali children and killed 16-year-old Shidane Arone.2
Since the Afghanistan “mission” began in 2002, 81 Canadian soldiers and one Canadian diplomat have been killed. The latest fatality has been described as “a committed warrior” by lt.-col. Dave Corbould. Corbould opined, “He was someone we can all emulate. He represented the warrior spirit 100 per cent.”3
Is the warrior what Canadians should emulate? One definition of a warrior is “a person habitually engaged in warfare.”4. Is Rambo to be emulated over persons committed to peace, such as a Mohandas Gandhi or an Albert Einstein?
Canadian chief of defense [sic] staff, General Rick Hillier weighed in: “I’m a little uncomfortable with the term warrior. I’m even more uncomfortable with the term peacekeeper. I’m neither of those; I’m simply a soldier.”5
Hillier is unequivocal about the role of a soldier: “We are the Canadian Forces, and our job is to be able to kill people.”6 [italics added] The job is not to protect people, it is to kill people — not defense.
Of the slain Canadian warrior, regimental sgt.-maj. Brian Semenko said, “He was really dedicated to the idea of serving overseas. He felt the best way to serve was to do it overseas. His idea was not to give candy to children, but to kill insurgents.”
A human who prefers to kill other humans to the non-violent joy of bringing smiles to the faces of children. Is that how Canadians are to serve? By killing?
Brig.-gen. Guy Laroche said, “We have lost a brother and a fine soldier who answered a call of duty one last time.”
Why not hail those people who struggle for peace. Is not the struggle for peace — an end to war and killing — the greater “call of duty”?
Canadian prime minister Stephen Harper lauded the fallen Canadian as “an exceptionally brave soldier who deserves the support and gratitude of all Canadians.”
No mention of Afghan gratitude is made.
Canadians were at one time smug that they could not be saddled with a George W. Bush-type “war president” like their neighbors across the border. However, Harper pursues a neoconservative agenda like Bush. Canadians have no reason to gloat.
Propagandizing Canadians
Hillier spoke of the public speaking training the military gets. “When I was in Afghanistan, we had people from the BBC come in to help us create the right perceptions, because perception is reality.”7 The CBC reporting plays into the perceptual reality spun by the Department of National Defense [sic].
Hillier sees it as a duty. He declared, “When a soldier steps on foreign soil in a high-risk environment, every single Canadian should be walking with him or her.”8
As for walking with soldiers, the pacifist Einstein was quoted:
He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.Canadians and people everywhere need to decide: are they for war or for peace? If people are for peace, then how can they walk with killers?
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
March 20th, 2008, 11:03 AM
And if the people of the Islamic faith don't step up to the same plate and embrace the same standard.....?
Clearly the agenda of the Bush administration in the United States was to manipulate world opinion against Saddam Hussein to prepare the field for unilateral aggression against the people of Iraq. Neither Bush nor most Americans bothered to determine if the Bush administration was informed and prudent in its demonization of the Iraqi people. In fact the whole message of the "ugent necessity" for action against Saddam Hussein was a lie. The action in Afghanistan, putatively to eradicate the Taliban and bring an end to radical extremists was both fueled and the view promoted that both the Taliban and Al Queada acted without the knowledge of the United States and we now know this to be utterly untrue. We know now that the American administration was complicit in (and has been for years) in fostering hatred and contempt between several factions in the Middle East.
How can anyone embrace the sentiment of working toward peace when a nation of people who regard themselves and never fail to claim to the world that theirs is a peaceful nation committed to the "rule of law" when not only has that "rule of law" never been applied to the traitor Bush and his cadre and Americans appear just as eager to invade and prosecute war on Iran?
I think you're wasting your time Beve.
And if the people of the Islamic faith don't step up to the same plate and embrace the same standard.....?
Clearly the agenda of the Bush administration in the United States was to manipulate world opinion against Saddam Hussein to prepare the field for unilateral aggression against the people of Iraq. Neither Bush nor most Americans bothered to determine if the Bush administration was informed and prudent in its demonization of the Iraqi people. In fact the whole message of the "ugent necessity" for action against Saddam Hussein was a lie. The action in Afghanistan, putatively to eradicate the Taliban and bring an end to radical extremists was both fueled and the view promoted that both the Taliban and Al Queada acted without the knowledge of the United States and we now know this to be utterly untrue. We know now that the American administration was complicit in (and has been for years) in fostering hatred and contempt between several factions in the Middle East.
How can anyone embrace the sentiment of working toward peace when a nation of people who regard themselves and never fail to claim to the world that theirs is a peaceful nation committed to the "rule of law" when not only has that "rule of law" never been applied to the traitor Bush and his cadre and Americans appear just as eager to invade and prosecute war on Iran?
I think you're wasting your time Beve.
Mass'Debator
Posts: 4,284
Location: Atlantic Canada
Location: Atlantic Canada
March 20th, 2008, 12:11 PM
Dark, you seem to express the view that we haven't viewed our other fallen soldiers as kind, peaceful or whatever. This is the first time someone called one a Warrior.... so? Who cares?
The people who knew him are expressing what he / his personality was like..... would you rather them lie and make him sound like he's all about flowers and sunshine? You then get back into propaganda then.
A soldier is a soldier first and foremost. Their personality and how they conduct themselves as a soldier is second. If he was someone who felt his duty was for combat rather then giving children candy to make their days seem better, then that is his decision alone. He still deserves the same amount of media attention and expression of who he was as a soldier as much as any of the other 80 (him being 81)
And don't forget, before Trudeau, we were a country known for a little military muscle, and our allies respected that.
Does that mean peace is a lost cause or something less important? Nope.
But even if Einstein was a smart fella as he was, that doesn't mean he was always right.... and the above was his opinion.
If he wants to think a soldier shouldn't have a brain, then he has no clue what and why a person becomes a soldier to begin with. You know, sure if we all wanted to be peaceful and put flowers in our hair, drop some cid and have big hippy orgies out in the park like our parents did in the 60's, sure why not? But you and I know that not everybody has that mentality, they want power and greed at the expense of others. If nobody stands up to them with equal force, then who will defend our lifestyles.... or even our lives? (Generally speaking)
If everybody was for peace and love, then we wouldn't need police for that matter. But reality is not the case, there are idiots out there, and some soldiers feel it is their duty to plug bad guys with bullets so that the people they know and care about do not have to and remain innocent. They sacrafice their freedom, bodies and minds for many reasons only explainable to them and no one else.
If one wants to go over to make those who are less fortunate then us have a better life, so be it, good for them. If one wants to go over and kill people they feel are a threat to their own country and those same people who are less fortunate.... who are we to argue?
One could also put it this way.... is giving some candy to some children making them anymore safer from those trying to kill them and those kids? Does this help speed up their time having to be over there in the first place?
Some, and even I will admit that yes, helping the youth and putting on a good image/impression on them that we're not evil is a good thing down the road, but it doesn't solve the current problem of idiots blowing themselves up.
In a nut shell, you need both types of soldiers to be effective. One's who are good with PR, and others who are good at killing. All should be good at killing, which is why they are soldiers to begin with, but I referring more to their personalities and priorities.
Added:
If I went down the road further then I did and followed my father and brother's footsteps into the military, then I would considder myself as both a peacemaker and a killer/warrior. I would envoke justice on those who deserve it and protect those who are innocent. Show compassion to the needy and little remorse for my enemy in my sights.
Same with our military or anything else one could discuss..... nothing is just black and white, left or right. I am sure this guy seemed like the modern warrior and conducted himself as an effective soldier in combat, there is certainly nothing wrong with that.... but that doesn't mean he was a cold hearted bastard either.
Dark, you seem to express the view that we haven't viewed our other fallen soldiers as kind, peaceful or whatever. This is the first time someone called one a Warrior.... so? Who cares?
The people who knew him are expressing what he / his personality was like..... would you rather them lie and make him sound like he's all about flowers and sunshine? You then get back into propaganda then.
A soldier is a soldier first and foremost. Their personality and how they conduct themselves as a soldier is second. If he was someone who felt his duty was for combat rather then giving children candy to make their days seem better, then that is his decision alone. He still deserves the same amount of media attention and expression of who he was as a soldier as much as any of the other 80 (him being 81)
And don't forget, before Trudeau, we were a country known for a little military muscle, and our allies respected that.
Does that mean peace is a lost cause or something less important? Nope.
But even if Einstein was a smart fella as he was, that doesn't mean he was always right.... and the above was his opinion.
If he wants to think a soldier shouldn't have a brain, then he has no clue what and why a person becomes a soldier to begin with. You know, sure if we all wanted to be peaceful and put flowers in our hair, drop some cid and have big hippy orgies out in the park like our parents did in the 60's, sure why not? But you and I know that not everybody has that mentality, they want power and greed at the expense of others. If nobody stands up to them with equal force, then who will defend our lifestyles.... or even our lives? (Generally speaking)
If everybody was for peace and love, then we wouldn't need police for that matter. But reality is not the case, there are idiots out there, and some soldiers feel it is their duty to plug bad guys with bullets so that the people they know and care about do not have to and remain innocent. They sacrafice their freedom, bodies and minds for many reasons only explainable to them and no one else.
If one wants to go over to make those who are less fortunate then us have a better life, so be it, good for them. If one wants to go over and kill people they feel are a threat to their own country and those same people who are less fortunate.... who are we to argue?
One could also put it this way.... is giving some candy to some children making them anymore safer from those trying to kill them and those kids? Does this help speed up their time having to be over there in the first place?
Some, and even I will admit that yes, helping the youth and putting on a good image/impression on them that we're not evil is a good thing down the road, but it doesn't solve the current problem of idiots blowing themselves up.
In a nut shell, you need both types of soldiers to be effective. One's who are good with PR, and others who are good at killing. All should be good at killing, which is why they are soldiers to begin with, but I referring more to their personalities and priorities.
Added:
If I went down the road further then I did and followed my father and brother's footsteps into the military, then I would considder myself as both a peacemaker and a killer/warrior. I would envoke justice on those who deserve it and protect those who are innocent. Show compassion to the needy and little remorse for my enemy in my sights.
Same with our military or anything else one could discuss..... nothing is just black and white, left or right. I am sure this guy seemed like the modern warrior and conducted himself as an effective soldier in combat, there is certainly nothing wrong with that.... but that doesn't mean he was a cold hearted bastard either.
Council Member
Posts: 2,301
March 20th, 2008, 01:10 PM
As an 11-year old I found a buried German soldier who's brown, leathery, folded hands stuck out of the ground. In haste and under fire his comrades had buried him a year before in a field beside the highway. The sight is still before my inner eye.
I was only six when I lost my 19-year old brother! He lies buried in Russian soil somewhere near Moscow!! I hardly have a memory of him.... I wish I could hug him now!
My other brother was taken prisoner by the Russians and spent over a year in a prison camp in Siberia. He was only let go after the war because he was too weak to work. In my memory I see this old man come across the field, taking a shortcut, towards me. I did not recognize him!
A third brother was lost, we didn't hear from him for a long time, didn't know, was he alive or dead? He was alive and came home after serving three years of slave labor in another country.
I witnessed treks of refugees arriving from the East. Our house was shared for years, first with bomb-out victims and then refugees. As a kid I picked up awful and tragic stories.
On several occasions, my Dad, a slightly wounded WWI veteran, would take me outside at night, when the allied bombers flew overhead towards the city of Kiel. He wasn't scared, and beside him I was neither. We saw them by the hundreds, following their straight course. A short while later the sky would start to glow red.
It is not that I was much affected by all this going on around me because I felt safe and secure with my parents, I didn't know what peace was like... but it all got buried in my soul. Just think how much got buried in kids' souls who were the target of these bombs??
In a few days I will celebrate my 50th anniversary of my arrival in Canada! I truly love this country, it is my home! It was so wonderful coming here to this great, beautiful and friendly country. After five years I cut the ties with Germany and became a rightful citizen. I was very fruitful and raised five beautiful children!
"Don't get Mom started on the war - she'll never shut up!!", they like to tease me
Well, that is pretty much true! So, I'll shut up now and let you young ones have a shake at destiny.
If I still may say one more thing to the young hotheads who want to go to war and kill:
There is no justification for killing another person, no honor for you in it, either. Strife for peace, not for war. Please, don't let Canada become a target by offending and threatening another country for no reason at all!! Think twice, kids, before you run off with your guns. You will not extinguish the fire - you will only add to it!
Quoting darkbeaver
Beaver, I've made that decision already half a century ago!!! I lived through the most horrible of horrible wars! Peace or Walking with Warriors
by Kim Petersen / March 20th, 2008
But Canadian troops shed any pretense to peacekeeping, in 1993, when members of the Canadian Airborne Regiment tortured Somali children and killed 16-year-old Shidane Arone.2
Since the Afghanistan “mission” began in 2002, 81 Canadian soldiers and one Canadian diplomat have been killed. The latest fatality has been described as “a committed warrior” by lt.-col. Dave Corbould. Corbould opined, “He was someone we can all emulate. He represented the warrior spirit 100 per cent.”3
Is the warrior what Canadians should emulate? One definition of a warrior is “a person habitually engaged in warfare.”4. Is Rambo to be emulated over persons committed to peace, such as a Mohandas Gandhi or an Albert Einstein?
Canadian chief of defense [sic] staff, General Rick Hillier weighed in: “I’m a little uncomfortable with the term warrior. I’m even more uncomfortable with the term peacekeeper. I’m neither of those; I’m simply a soldier.”5
Hillier is unequivocal about the role of a soldier: “We are the Canadian Forces, and our job is to be able to kill people.”6 [italics added] The job is not to protect people, it is to kill people — not defense.
Of the slain Canadian warrior, regimental sgt.-maj. Brian Semenko said, “He was really dedicated to the idea of serving overseas. He felt the best way to serve was to do it overseas. His idea was not to give candy to children, but to kill insurgents.”
A human who prefers to kill other humans to the non-violent joy of bringing smiles to the faces of children. Is that how Canadians are to serve? By killing?
Brig.-gen. Guy Laroche said, “We have lost a brother and a fine soldier who answered a call of duty one last time.”
Why not hail those people who struggle for peace. Is not the struggle for peace — an end to war and killing — the greater “call of duty”?
Canadian prime minister Stephen Harper lauded the fallen Canadian as “an exceptionally brave soldier who deserves the support and gratitude of all Canadians.”
No mention of Afghan gratitude is made.
Canadians were at one time smug that they could not be saddled with a George W. Bush-type “war president” like their neighbors across the border. However, Harper pursues a neoconservative agenda like Bush. Canadians have no reason to gloat.
Propagandizing Canadians
Hillier spoke of the public speaking training the military gets. “When I was in Afghanistan, we had people from the BBC come in to help us create the right perceptions, because perception is reality.”7 The CBC reporting plays into the perceptual reality spun by the Department of National Defense [sic].
Hillier sees it as a duty. He declared, “When a soldier steps on foreign soil in a high-risk environment, every single Canadian should be walking with him or her.”8
As for walking with soldiers, the pacifist Einstein was quoted:
by Kim Petersen / March 20th, 2008
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.The Canadian state-run media CBC is portraying an aggressive image of Canadians. Canada has pretty much abandoned its vaunted image as a nation of peace. This is far removed from the day when former Canadian prime minister Pierre Trudeau embarked on a peace initiative to end the Cold War, drawing the ire of Washington.1
– Albert Einstein
But Canadian troops shed any pretense to peacekeeping, in 1993, when members of the Canadian Airborne Regiment tortured Somali children and killed 16-year-old Shidane Arone.2
Since the Afghanistan “mission” began in 2002, 81 Canadian soldiers and one Canadian diplomat have been killed. The latest fatality has been described as “a committed warrior” by lt.-col. Dave Corbould. Corbould opined, “He was someone we can all emulate. He represented the warrior spirit 100 per cent.”3
Is the warrior what Canadians should emulate? One definition of a warrior is “a person habitually engaged in warfare.”4. Is Rambo to be emulated over persons committed to peace, such as a Mohandas Gandhi or an Albert Einstein?
Canadian chief of defense [sic] staff, General Rick Hillier weighed in: “I’m a little uncomfortable with the term warrior. I’m even more uncomfortable with the term peacekeeper. I’m neither of those; I’m simply a soldier.”5
Hillier is unequivocal about the role of a soldier: “We are the Canadian Forces, and our job is to be able to kill people.”6 [italics added] The job is not to protect people, it is to kill people — not defense.
Of the slain Canadian warrior, regimental sgt.-maj. Brian Semenko said, “He was really dedicated to the idea of serving overseas. He felt the best way to serve was to do it overseas. His idea was not to give candy to children, but to kill insurgents.”
A human who prefers to kill other humans to the non-violent joy of bringing smiles to the faces of children. Is that how Canadians are to serve? By killing?
Brig.-gen. Guy Laroche said, “We have lost a brother and a fine soldier who answered a call of duty one last time.”
Why not hail those people who struggle for peace. Is not the struggle for peace — an end to war and killing — the greater “call of duty”?
Canadian prime minister Stephen Harper lauded the fallen Canadian as “an exceptionally brave soldier who deserves the support and gratitude of all Canadians.”
No mention of Afghan gratitude is made.
Canadians were at one time smug that they could not be saddled with a George W. Bush-type “war president” like their neighbors across the border. However, Harper pursues a neoconservative agenda like Bush. Canadians have no reason to gloat.
Propagandizing Canadians
Hillier spoke of the public speaking training the military gets. “When I was in Afghanistan, we had people from the BBC come in to help us create the right perceptions, because perception is reality.”7 The CBC reporting plays into the perceptual reality spun by the Department of National Defense [sic].
Hillier sees it as a duty. He declared, “When a soldier steps on foreign soil in a high-risk environment, every single Canadian should be walking with him or her.”8
As for walking with soldiers, the pacifist Einstein was quoted:
He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.Canadians and people everywhere need to decide: are they for war or for peace? If people are for peace, then how can they walk with killers?
As an 11-year old I found a buried German soldier who's brown, leathery, folded hands stuck out of the ground. In haste and under fire his comrades had buried him a year before in a field beside the highway. The sight is still before my inner eye.
I was only six when I lost my 19-year old brother! He lies buried in Russian soil somewhere near Moscow!! I hardly have a memory of him.... I wish I could hug him now!
My other brother was taken prisoner by the Russians and spent over a year in a prison camp in Siberia. He was only let go after the war because he was too weak to work. In my memory I see this old man come across the field, taking a shortcut, towards me. I did not recognize him!
A third brother was lost, we didn't hear from him for a long time, didn't know, was he alive or dead? He was alive and came home after serving three years of slave labor in another country.
I witnessed treks of refugees arriving from the East. Our house was shared for years, first with bomb-out victims and then refugees. As a kid I picked up awful and tragic stories.
On several occasions, my Dad, a slightly wounded WWI veteran, would take me outside at night, when the allied bombers flew overhead towards the city of Kiel. He wasn't scared, and beside him I was neither. We saw them by the hundreds, following their straight course. A short while later the sky would start to glow red.
It is not that I was much affected by all this going on around me because I felt safe and secure with my parents, I didn't know what peace was like... but it all got buried in my soul. Just think how much got buried in kids' souls who were the target of these bombs??
In a few days I will celebrate my 50th anniversary of my arrival in Canada! I truly love this country, it is my home! It was so wonderful coming here to this great, beautiful and friendly country. After five years I cut the ties with Germany and became a rightful citizen. I was very fruitful and raised five beautiful children!
"Don't get Mom started on the war - she'll never shut up!!", they like to tease me
Well, that is pretty much true! So, I'll shut up now and let you young ones have a shake at destiny.
If I still may say one more thing to the young hotheads who want to go to war and kill:
There is no justification for killing another person, no honor for you in it, either. Strife for peace, not for war. Please, don't let Canada become a target by offending and threatening another country for no reason at all!! Think twice, kids, before you run off with your guns. You will not extinguish the fire - you will only add to it!
Electoral Member
Posts: 340
Location: Edmonton
Location: Edmonton
March 20th, 2008, 01:35 PM
Any may I say Dancing-Loon we are grateful to have you in our country. You bring firsthand experience to the table. You can tell us citizens who speak with the "bravery of being out of range" how horrible war really is. It's tough enough raising kids in a peaceful country like Canada but your parents must have been remarkable people to pass on a sense of safety to you in the midst of all that turmoil.
Any may I say Dancing-Loon we are grateful to have you in our country. You bring firsthand experience to the table. You can tell us citizens who speak with the "bravery of being out of range" how horrible war really is. It's tough enough raising kids in a peaceful country like Canada but your parents must have been remarkable people to pass on a sense of safety to you in the midst of all that turmoil.
Council Member
Posts: 2,301
March 20th, 2008, 02:57 PM
Both, my Mom and Dad, often said I was their sunshine during the war years...I distracted them, they had to look out and care for me.
Mom and Dad are gone! My three brothers are gone! My husband is gone! I'm standing with both feet in the first trench... fighting my own war retroactively!!!
Quoting mt_pockets1000
Yes, you sensed that right, mt_pockets! As a kid one doesn't realize that. One has to become a parent first. A mother especially is much more connected to her children. I remember how my Mom would find signs in nature, like a four-leaf clover blade. It meant the boys are still alive. A beautiful sunset... a greeting from them. A bird on the window sill... bringing a greeting. She had several magnificent, meaningful dreams which later proved to connect to especially crucial situations my brothers were in.
Any may I say Dancing-Loon we are grateful to have you in our country. You bring firsthand experience to the table. You can tell us citizens who speak with the "bravery of being out of range" how horrible war really is. It's tough enough raising kids in a peaceful country like Canada but your parents must have been remarkable people to pass on a sense of safety to you in the midst of all that turmoil.
Both, my Mom and Dad, often said I was their sunshine during the war years...I distracted them, they had to look out and care for me.
Mom and Dad are gone! My three brothers are gone! My husband is gone! I'm standing with both feet in the first trench... fighting my own war retroactively!!!
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 10,273
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
March 20th, 2008, 03:58 PM
I can add little else Dancing Loon, your life experiance should give all who contemplate the false promises of war and the empty glorification of combat pause for reflection. Canadas expedition to Afghanistan for reasons other than the defence of this country in my opinion offers no reason whatever to respect it's participants. I think most of the civilians of that country who die by the thousands to stuff the pockets of the rich elite of the western world in a useless conflict that my country simply has no good bussiness being involved in. I refuse to respect the warrior I refuse to extend honour where none has been earned and none can be earned, we are the invaders, we are the occupiers, we build nothing we save no-one.
I can add little else Dancing Loon, your life experiance should give all who contemplate the false promises of war and the empty glorification of combat pause for reflection. Canadas expedition to Afghanistan for reasons other than the defence of this country in my opinion offers no reason whatever to respect it's participants. I think most of the civilians of that country who die by the thousands to stuff the pockets of the rich elite of the western world in a useless conflict that my country simply has no good bussiness being involved in. I refuse to respect the warrior I refuse to extend honour where none has been earned and none can be earned, we are the invaders, we are the occupiers, we build nothing we save no-one.
Council Member
Posts: 2,301
March 20th, 2008, 11:24 PM
[quote=darkbeaver;936962]I can add little else Dancing Loon, your life experience should give all who contemplate the false promises of war and the empty glorification of combat pause for reflection.[quote]Yes, that's how our youth gets lured into the war, but in the end there was no glorification, forget honor for my brothers and their comrades. I was recently ousted from a German forum for saying I was proud of the German soldiers, especially the Waffen SS! Collectively, all German soldiers are now criminals! I had no idea! Thus far has the brainwashing succeeded in Germany. Next thing you know, I will have to go to jail for my statement!!!
I rather respect and value them for wanting to help, even knowing it could cost them their life.Their innocence, so precious...that is a huge sacrifice from a young person who has his life still before him. But I also feel sorry for them! They go, not realizing this is not Canada's war.
I feel the innocence of our children is being exploited by the power guys at the top. Our anger should be directed at them, not the kids that volunteer.
You know, I had the belief that after that horrendous war which involved every European country plus America... that there would be no more wars, they would do everything to avoid that kind of devastation ever again to happen.
I have heard some guys, saying the Americans need their asses whooped real good before they will smarten up and keep peace. Easier said than done, and besides, who should do the whooping??
[quote=darkbeaver;936962]I can add little else Dancing Loon, your life experience should give all who contemplate the false promises of war and the empty glorification of combat pause for reflection.[quote]Yes, that's how our youth gets lured into the war, but in the end there was no glorification, forget honor for my brothers and their comrades. I was recently ousted from a German forum for saying I was proud of the German soldiers, especially the Waffen SS! Collectively, all German soldiers are now criminals! I had no idea! Thus far has the brainwashing succeeded in Germany. Next thing you know, I will have to go to jail for my statement!!!
Quote:
I share your view up to here one hundred percent!!
Canada's expedition to Afghanistan for reasons other than the defense of this country in my opinion offers no reason whatever to respect it's participants. I think most of the civilians of that country who die by the thousands to stuff the pockets of the rich elite of the western world in a useless conflict that my country simply has no good business being involved in.
Quote:
But Beaver,...our boys and girls who volunteer don't know all that. I once read the military propaganda machine goes first to the poorer maritime provinces to lure the young unemployeds, undereducated and nothing better to do youths into their fangs. They get tricked into believing this stuff about honorable duty to make the world a better place. Those are empty phrases, and I will not believe that our top brass doesn't know that.
I refuse to respect the warrior. I refuse to extend honour where none has been earned and none can be earned, we are the invaders, we are the occupiers, we build nothing we save no-one.
I rather respect and value them for wanting to help, even knowing it could cost them their life.Their innocence, so precious...that is a huge sacrifice from a young person who has his life still before him. But I also feel sorry for them! They go, not realizing this is not Canada's war.
I feel the innocence of our children is being exploited by the power guys at the top. Our anger should be directed at them, not the kids that volunteer.
You know, I had the belief that after that horrendous war which involved every European country plus America... that there would be no more wars, they would do everything to avoid that kind of devastation ever again to happen.
I have heard some guys, saying the Americans need their asses whooped real good before they will smarten up and keep peace.
Easier said than done, and besides, who should do the whooping?? Super Genius
Posts: 1,384
Location: London, Ont. Canada
Location: London, Ont. Canada
March 21st, 2008, 03:25 AM
IMO as far as wars go, Afghanistan is a justified and honourable course of action. Doesn't make it a rose smelling job though. Iraq is a criminal enterprise. GWB deserves to be on trial at The Haque as much as any Serbian or Croat ethnic cleanser.
IMO as far as wars go, Afghanistan is a justified and honourable course of action. Doesn't make it a rose smelling job though. Iraq is a criminal enterprise. GWB deserves to be on trial at The Haque as much as any Serbian or Croat ethnic cleanser.
March 21st, 2008, 05:01 AM
Amazing how a Warrior, can accept and respect the opinion of those that walk the path of pacifism, without judgment. But he the pacifists are so intolerant and vile.
Peace be upon the pacifist, may you live long and love all, because someone chose to do what you find so contemptible.
Amazing how a Warrior, can accept and respect the opinion of those that walk the path of pacifism, without judgment. But he the pacifists are so intolerant and vile.
Peace be upon the pacifist, may you live long and love all, because someone chose to do what you find so contemptible.
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 6,281
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
March 21st, 2008, 09:11 AM
Cheeking is a quaint little game - very much like counting coup - where you sneak in close enought to jab some unwary person in the ass with an icepick-like impliment. No, it won't kill (unless the stiletto has been poisioned) but it will make it extremely painful to give chase and throttle the little bas*ard.
Woof!
Quote:
What a load of propagandic crap! Tortured Somali children? Agreed, ONE Somali - a sixteen-year-old (who has legally been a man for three years in Somali culture) was bullied, beaten and killed by two ill-disciplined and frustrated Canadians. I wonder how pissed off any of us might be after having been cheeked?
But Canadian troops shed any pretense to peacekeeping, in 1993, when members of the Canadian Airborne Regiment tortured Somali children and killed 16-year-old Shidane Arone.2
Cheeking is a quaint little game - very much like counting coup - where you sneak in close enought to jab some unwary person in the ass with an icepick-like impliment. No, it won't kill (unless the stiletto has been poisioned) but it will make it extremely painful to give chase and throttle the little bas*ard.
Woof!
Senate Member
Posts: 5,591
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
March 21st, 2008, 09:24 AM
Unfortunately, their rule would have been much, much worse than war. Unfortunately, the cost of 55 million lives to crush German, Italian, and Japanese fascism was - how can I even say this? - it was worth it. Because the cost of submission would have been so much worse.
Yes, war is an evil thing......but one sometimes has to choose the lesser of two evils.
And those we send out into that meat grinder, those that step forward in our defense, those that serve.....deserve our respect.
Those pacifist that react with disgust to the people that protect them are, in my opinion, beneath contempt. If they choose that path for themselves, fine.....but without those willing to do violence on their behalf......they would have a much more onerous decision......fight, live as slaves, or die.
Thus it has always been.
Thus it always will be.
Quoting dancing-loon
Unfortunately, and I don't mean to be cruel, but if the bombers hadn't flown over those German cities, if the German Army hadn't met with resistence, if we hadn't killed indiscriminately, we would have wound up occupied and ruled by one of the worst group of murderers and genocidal lunatics in human history. Beaver, I've made that decision already half a century ago!!! I lived through the most horrible of horrible wars!
As an 11-year old I found a buried German soldier who's brown, leathery, folded hands stuck out of the ground. In haste and under fire his comrades had buried him a year before in a field beside the highway. The sight is still before my inner eye.
I was only six when I lost my 19-year old brother! He lies buried in Russian soil somewhere near Moscow!! I hardly have a memory of him.... I wish I could hug him now!
My other brother was taken prisoner by the Russians and spent over a year in a prison camp in Siberia. He was only let go after the war because he was too weak to work. In my memory I see this old man come across the field, taking a shortcut, towards me. I did not recognize him!
A third brother was lost, we didn't hear from him for a long time, didn't know, was he alive or dead? He was alive and came home after serving three years of slave labor in another country.
I witnessed treks of refugees arriving from the East. Our house was shared for years, first with bomb-out victims and then refugees. As a kid I picked up awful and tragic stories.
On several occasions, my Dad, a slightly wounded WWI veteran, would take mr outside at night, when the allied bombers flew overhead towards the city of Kiel. He wasn't scared, and beside him I was neither. We saw them by the hundreds, following their straight course. A short while later the sky would start to glow red.
It is not that I was much affected by all this going on around me because I felt safe and secure with my parents, I didn't know what peace was like... but it all got buried in my soul. Just think how much got buried in kids' souls who were the target of these bombs??
In a few days I will celebrate my 50th anniversary of my arrival in Canada! I truly love this country, it is my home! It was so wonderful coming here to this great, beautiful and friendly country. After five years I cut the ties with Germany and became a rightful citizen. I was very fruitful and raised five beautiful children!
"Don't get Mom started on the war - she'll never shut up!!", they like to tease me
Well, that is pretty much true! So, I'll shut up now and let you young ones have a shake at destiny.
If I still may say one more thing to the young hotheads who want to go to war and kill:
There is no justification for killing another person, no honor for you in it, either. Strife for peace, not for war. Please, don't let Canada become a target by offending and threatening another country for no reason at all!! Think twice, kids, before you run off with your guns. You will not extinguish the fire - you will only add to it!
As an 11-year old I found a buried German soldier who's brown, leathery, folded hands stuck out of the ground. In haste and under fire his comrades had buried him a year before in a field beside the highway. The sight is still before my inner eye.
I was only six when I lost my 19-year old brother! He lies buried in Russian soil somewhere near Moscow!! I hardly have a memory of him.... I wish I could hug him now!
My other brother was taken prisoner by the Russians and spent over a year in a prison camp in Siberia. He was only let go after the war because he was too weak to work. In my memory I see this old man come across the field, taking a shortcut, towards me. I did not recognize him!
A third brother was lost, we didn't hear from him for a long time, didn't know, was he alive or dead? He was alive and came home after serving three years of slave labor in another country.
I witnessed treks of refugees arriving from the East. Our house was shared for years, first with bomb-out victims and then refugees. As a kid I picked up awful and tragic stories.
On several occasions, my Dad, a slightly wounded WWI veteran, would take mr outside at night, when the allied bombers flew overhead towards the city of Kiel. He wasn't scared, and beside him I was neither. We saw them by the hundreds, following their straight course. A short while later the sky would start to glow red.
It is not that I was much affected by all this going on around me because I felt safe and secure with my parents, I didn't know what peace was like... but it all got buried in my soul. Just think how much got buried in kids' souls who were the target of these bombs??
In a few days I will celebrate my 50th anniversary of my arrival in Canada! I truly love this country, it is my home! It was so wonderful coming here to this great, beautiful and friendly country. After five years I cut the ties with Germany and became a rightful citizen. I was very fruitful and raised five beautiful children!
"Don't get Mom started on the war - she'll never shut up!!", they like to tease me
Well, that is pretty much true! So, I'll shut up now and let you young ones have a shake at destiny.
If I still may say one more thing to the young hotheads who want to go to war and kill:
There is no justification for killing another person, no honor for you in it, either. Strife for peace, not for war. Please, don't let Canada become a target by offending and threatening another country for no reason at all!! Think twice, kids, before you run off with your guns. You will not extinguish the fire - you will only add to it!
Unfortunately, their rule would have been much, much worse than war. Unfortunately, the cost of 55 million lives to crush German, Italian, and Japanese fascism was - how can I even say this? - it was worth it. Because the cost of submission would have been so much worse.
Yes, war is an evil thing......but one sometimes has to choose the lesser of two evils.
And those we send out into that meat grinder, those that step forward in our defense, those that serve.....deserve our respect.
Those pacifist that react with disgust to the people that protect them are, in my opinion, beneath contempt. If they choose that path for themselves, fine.....but without those willing to do violence on their behalf......they would have a much more onerous decision......fight, live as slaves, or die.
Thus it has always been.
Thus it always will be.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
March 21st, 2008, 09:25 AM
It isn’t “soldiers” who decide who dies.
When you don the uniform of your nations military service, you surrender your personal will and control of your actions to something greater. You cease to be the son of your mother and your father, you become a son of the nation you embrace as your own. You accept that the decisions of people who may never have experienced war or death and destruction will determine your service to that nation. You swear an oath to put the well-being of your nation and your compatriots above your personal safety and comfort. You relinquish your vision of morality and your personal perspective on what may or may not constitute “right” and “wrong”.
That’s what the uniform is all about.
You cease to be an individual, an individual with aspirations and hopes predicated on dreams and desires, you become an element in a vision of purspose that may have nothing in it that you’d recognize as your own.
Your nation through elected representatives and legal process identify an enemy and hold you to your oath and commitment to this vision of something greater than yourself. Sometimes that means killing the enemy and dying in the effort to actualize the vision you’ve embraced. For some of us, we weren’t volunteers and our nation compelled us to service. Some of us returned from that horror, many did not.
But always remember, it was you who made this decision not the soldier the marine the airman or the sailor, it was a duly elected governing organism of a free and tolerant people.
Anger at the “warrior” is misplaced.
It isn’t “soldiers” who decide who dies.
When you don the uniform of your nations military service, you surrender your personal will and control of your actions to something greater. You cease to be the son of your mother and your father, you become a son of the nation you embrace as your own. You accept that the decisions of people who may never have experienced war or death and destruction will determine your service to that nation. You swear an oath to put the well-being of your nation and your compatriots above your personal safety and comfort. You relinquish your vision of morality and your personal perspective on what may or may not constitute “right” and “wrong”.
That’s what the uniform is all about.
You cease to be an individual, an individual with aspirations and hopes predicated on dreams and desires, you become an element in a vision of purspose that may have nothing in it that you’d recognize as your own.
Your nation through elected representatives and legal process identify an enemy and hold you to your oath and commitment to this vision of something greater than yourself. Sometimes that means killing the enemy and dying in the effort to actualize the vision you’ve embraced. For some of us, we weren’t volunteers and our nation compelled us to service. Some of us returned from that horror, many did not.
But always remember, it was you who made this decision not the soldier the marine the airman or the sailor, it was a duly elected governing organism of a free and tolerant people.
Anger at the “warrior” is misplaced.
Council Member
Posts: 2,301
March 21st, 2008, 10:21 AM
Quoting MikeyDB
Mikey, I do agree with you, but of what help is it to rant and rave against the Empire? We achieve nothing. The best and most we Canadians could do is shake our own Harper government!! It is as clear as dumpling soup that our present government is aligning itself with the Empire, either out of fear and cowardness, or a desire to be seen rubbing shoulders with the Mighty Empire. It disappoints me that our leaders have no spine of their own to stand up for peace and honesty as the true and free North we proclaim we are!!
And if the people of the Islamic faith don't step up to the same plate and embrace the same standard.....?
Clearly the agenda of the Bush administration in the United States was to manipulate world opinion against Saddam Hussein to prepare the field for unilateral aggression against the people of Iraq. Neither Bush nor most Americans bothered to determine if the Bush administration was informed and prudent in its demonization of the Iraqi people. In fact the whole message of the "ugent necessity" for action against Saddam Hussein was a lie. The action in Afghanistan, putatively to eradicate the Taliban and bring an end to radical extremists was both fueled and the view promoted that both the Taliban and Al Queada acted without the knowledge of the United States and we now know this to be utterly untrue. We know now that the American administration was complicit in (and has been for years) in fostering hatred and contempt between several factions in the Middle East.
How can anyone embrace the sentiment of working toward peace when a nation of people who regard themselves and never fail to claim to the world that theirs is a peaceful nation committed to the "rule of law" when not only has that "rule of law" never been applied to the traitor Bush and his cadre and Americans appear just as eager to invade and prosecute war on Iran?
I think you're wasting your time Beve.
Clearly the agenda of the Bush administration in the United States was to manipulate world opinion against Saddam Hussein to prepare the field for unilateral aggression against the people of Iraq. Neither Bush nor most Americans bothered to determine if the Bush administration was informed and prudent in its demonization of the Iraqi people. In fact the whole message of the "ugent necessity" for action against Saddam Hussein was a lie. The action in Afghanistan, putatively to eradicate the Taliban and bring an end to radical extremists was both fueled and the view promoted that both the Taliban and Al Queada acted without the knowledge of the United States and we now know this to be utterly untrue. We know now that the American administration was complicit in (and has been for years) in fostering hatred and contempt between several factions in the Middle East.
How can anyone embrace the sentiment of working toward peace when a nation of people who regard themselves and never fail to claim to the world that theirs is a peaceful nation committed to the "rule of law" when not only has that "rule of law" never been applied to the traitor Bush and his cadre and Americans appear just as eager to invade and prosecute war on Iran?
I think you're wasting your time Beve.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
March 21st, 2008, 10:28 AM
I agree Dancing_loon amd that's exactly why we have to stop playing the game. When elected representatives usurp the authority of the democracy that elected them...taking junkets to Mexico for photo-ops with wealthy contributors in tow....By rescuing Bear Stearns and American corporations while average Joe and Jane America lose their homes and sacrifice their children to corporate nabobs.....
The difficulty is what I was attempting to say to Praxius.... You can't convince anyone in Canada or the United States that its long past time to put down their tools, engage in peaceful civil disobedience and stop playing the game.....
Unless and until sufficient numbers of people are stained with the failures of the choices made by the mandarins and liars the people elected and handed the responsibility of our children's futures to.....absolutely nothing can or will happen. No re-shaping of "democracy" no balance in the "system of justice", theives and liars will continue to bleed Canadians and Americans like the leeches they are.
I agree Dancing_loon amd that's exactly why we have to stop playing the game. When elected representatives usurp the authority of the democracy that elected them...taking junkets to Mexico for photo-ops with wealthy contributors in tow....By rescuing Bear Stearns and American corporations while average Joe and Jane America lose their homes and sacrifice their children to corporate nabobs.....
The difficulty is what I was attempting to say to Praxius.... You can't convince anyone in Canada or the United States that its long past time to put down their tools, engage in peaceful civil disobedience and stop playing the game.....
Unless and until sufficient numbers of people are stained with the failures of the choices made by the mandarins and liars the people elected and handed the responsibility of our children's futures to.....absolutely nothing can or will happen. No re-shaping of "democracy" no balance in the "system of justice", theives and liars will continue to bleed Canadians and Americans like the leeches they are.
March 21st, 2008, 10:29 AM
Sure, pissing off our largest trading partner, our next door neighbour, our best friend, our defense umbrella and so on, won't make a lick of difference in the economy of Canada.
We're right behind ya!!!
Quoting dancing-loon
You know what Loonie, you're right, we should just pick our ball and go home.
Mikey, I do agree with you, but of what help is it to rant and rave against the Empire? We achieve nothing. The best and most we Canadians could do is shake our own Harper government!! It is as clear as dumpling soup that our present government is aligning itself with the Empire, either out of fear and cowardness, or a desire to be seen rubbing shoulders with the Mighty Empire. It disappoints me that our leaders have no spine of their own to stand up for peace and honesty as the true and free North we proclaim we are!!
Sure, pissing off our largest trading partner, our next door neighbour, our best friend, our defense umbrella and so on, won't make a lick of difference in the economy of Canada.
We're right behind ya!!!
