What do we owe to those we've wronged?

[Dexter Sinister]

This is a question I have pondered now and then, specifically in response to the way European settlement of North America ruined generations of First Nations people. I think in general the answer is that we do owe them something, but with restrictions and conditions that need to be defined based on history and present circumstances. For instance, I don't personally feel any responsibility for what happened to Canada's First Nations people, I had nothing to do with it, and the same is true of many other situations, like the internment of citizens of Japanese origin during World War 2. On the other hand, the Government of Canada, an institution that I support (with limits, and mostly in the abstract; I haven't much use for the current administration) and that represents me, did those things. That institution still exists and so do the people it harmed, and I think we, through that institution, bear a group responsibility to make restitution to our fellow citizens.

Where do we draw the line though? Does England, for instance, owe Scotland restitution for the Battle of Culloden Moor and the events that led to and followed from it? Or for the Highland Clearances? Does the Christian church owe all of Western Europe for the destruction of all its pre-Christian religions? Does Italy owe people in all the territories of the former Roman Empire for the cultural destruction its legions wrought? Do the descendants of the Huns and Goths owe Italy for the destruction of the Roman Empire? Pretty much every society on the planet has at some point in its history been conquered, over-run, or otherwise damaged by some other society. That's just the way it was, and we can't realistically do anything about most of it. Besides, broodingly hanging on to those kinds of ancient grievances, long past when time has rendered them largely irrelevant except for historical understandings of how we got to wherever we are, is what lies at the root of the sectarian violence in Northern Ireland and the internecine warfare in the Middle East.

But in circumstances where we *can* do something, and where the groups and institutions involved are still extant, then we should do something. We should, for instance, honour both the letter and the spirit of every treaty ever made with any of Canada's aboriginals, in the terms the aboriginals understood them. For instance, some treaties contain clauses like "as long as the grass shall grow and the rivers shall run," which was an attempt to put into words the aboriginals would understand the phrase in British common law "in perpetuity." But in certain legal circumstances, particularly those involving land titles, "in perpetuity" doesn't mean forever as you would expect and as the aboriginals certainly did, it means for three generations hence, according to what I've read. However, at least we haven't totally screwed up: the clauses in the treaties about providing a box of medicine annually and a school with a teacher on the reserves have been interpreted in contemporary terms as meaning funds will be provided for all medical care and education to the university level for First Nations people. Not the letter of the treaties, certainly, but definitely the spirit.

Any thoughts?

 

[gc]

RE: What do we owe to tho

Wow, excellent post. That is a very tough question(s) you are posing, but I pretty much agree with you. Certainly with respect to Natives, I think it is important to uphold the treaties. Situations like the internment of Japanese-Canadians during world war II are a bit tougher. Yes it was wrong, but most people in Canada weren't even born then and can not be direcly responsible. Personally, I don't mind paying a few extra dollars to help out people who were wronged in the past, but can I really expect others to feel the same way? Probably not. I don't blame anyone else for the internment, so it's hard to expect them to pay for it, though I am sure there are others who don't mind paying for it.

 

[FiveParadox]

Re: Owing to Those We've Wronged

Beautiful post, Dexter Sinister! An intriguing topic, too.

I would agree with you, in that we should be responsible, in a sort of collective sense through the Crown of Canada, for the acts of our Government of Canada, and its predecessors, through the Crown. If there are events in the history of Canada that are of such severity to as to recognize a need for restitution, then I would be quite happy, and deem it quite appropriate, to pay my share of the Crown's owing for another party.

As for Aboriginal Canadians and the treaties with them, I entirely agree with you, Dexter Sinister. It's extremely important for not only the letter of the law to continue to be respected and implemented, but for the spirit of those treaties to be maintained (and, in some odd cases, to supercede the literal terms of those treaties, where appropriate). There are many tarnished stains and scratches on our Canadian Crown; however, I am one who thinks that it can be polished up rather nicely through dialogue, understanding, and a common purpose.

 

[Finder]

Yeah thats kind of hard to answer.

But I relate to that smewhat, as my family is of Irish decent, I know generally the Irish people do not wish anything more from the UK then to be simply left alone.

Generally I think many of these native self governments which are in the talks and somewhat practiced is a good place to start, in Canada.

 

[tamarin]

Looks like a lot of trouble brewing here. If you're really committed to honouring native treaties, you're not going to have a Canada. If you go back to the original treaties signed when the nation was young and honour their terms before all the cajoling, armtwisting, lying and cheating began, you'd lose great swaths of the country to First Nations groups. With the Caledonia mess, it certainly could be argued - before a sympathetic audience - that any changes to the original land grant made after the Revolutionary War were initiated to suit the needs and whims of the period's government and European settlers. Those native chiefs that signed on to changes were obviously in a position of power imbalance and failed to recognize the inevitable repercussions in the future. Those changes should be revoked in deference to the article and intent of the original grant.
'Tis a rocky road to ruin.
If you're going to redress past wrongs, what will you do with those hundreds of thousands of Canadians and their millions of surviving children, who are here today only because they refused to honour the draft in 1944 and 1945? It's a huge historical wrong. Their refusal meant death for Canada's overtaxed troops overseas and as a result of their refusal to serve their country in a time of need they were able to build up equity here at home while their peers slogged it out alone overseas. Let's open the books. The government will have the documents. Let's do it and assess a heavy surcharge to every offending family and survivor.

 

[iARTthere4iam]

This is a fantastic thread...unfortunately I gotta go.

before I go ... I don't think that all past wrongs CAN be honoured.

If canada hadn't been, then the natives would have become incorporated into the US and would have been not any better off. History is funny that way.

The natives wouldn't have been left to wander their vast paradise hunting buffalo and such. The loss of their way of life is history...theirs and ours.

 

[feronia]

This will sound simplistic but has anyone in history ever tried to just say "I'm sorry."? Most people just want to be recognized as being wronged. It's a human trait that we need to be told that we are recognized as being victims and then we can heal and move on. Yes, commit to the treaties on hand but more so heal the people behind the treaties and you will have created an inner peace that will last forever.

 

[wallyj]

I think that the treaties must be honoured as written. They were signed to stop the eventual eradication of the Indians.Since that time and particulary in th last 30 years the treaties have been quite liberally interpeted. Right now there is land claims totalling 110% of British Columbia. One band has put in a claim for everything south of Red deer to the U.S. border in Alberta. The idea that a contract has a spirit that is legal and enforcable is ridiculous. The Six nation claim in Caledonia is totally baseless. I have corresponded with them on more than a few occasions and they cannot answer basic questions such as;What is the expiry date on the lease? Why do you have nothing to back up your assertions while everyone else has documentation? Why is there not even a land claim filed for this property today? Go to citizens for Caledonia website. It is an eyeopener. We have compensated the natives many times over. It is time for them to join the rest of us in the 21th century.

 

[hermanntrude]

In the event where one person in wronged by another, the recompense isn't usually decided by the wronger, but either the wrongee or an impartial judge. I can imagine people being worried by that hapening in this situation because theoretically our wrongees could suggest anything at all, but remember for instance when a friend betrays another friend and asks for forgiveness, and their punishment or recompense is being decided, there are still certain rules to the decision, as if the friend were to suggest a recompense of outrageous proportions the friends would remain unsatisfied, and probably a larger different of opinions would occur.

It's not really that i'm suggesting the first nations or an impartial judge (i expect there arent any) should decide on how the settlers should pay for their wrongdoings (or their ancestors'), i'm just saying maybe it's a little obtuse for us to be suggesting WE should decide.

 

[tamarin]

History has millions of wrongs that could be redressed. And nations have changed because of many. The US took a leap in a new direction with John Kennedy and yet had his family been forced to pay its dues for all the financial skullduggery that made its fortune possible then he would never have been president
Pierre Trudeau changed Canada. Forever. Yet had his early fascist leanings been widely and properly disseminated he would never have become PM.
It was wrong that these men achieved positions of leadership. However, little can be done about it now.

 

[Liz]

At some point we all have to just be Canadians. When I was going to university I remember not being able to register for some classes I needed. I was put on LONG waiting lists. My sister who has dark hair, skin and eyes, armed with my student number had me registered in seconds. I personally had nothing to do with any wrong doings to any aboriginal people, ever. But my blonde hair caused me such a delay in school that eight years of farting around with quotas in classrooms, I still had no degree. Why should I be punished?

 

[gc]

Re: RE: What do we owe to those we've wronged?

At some point we all have to just be Canadians. When I was going to university I remember not being able to register for some classes I needed. I was put on LONG waiting lists. My sister who has dark hair, skin and eyes, armed with my student number had me registered in seconds. I personally had nothing to do with any wrong doings to any aboriginal people, ever. But my blonde hair caused me such a delay in school that eight years of farting around with quotas in classrooms, I still had no degree. Why should I be punished?

I don't know what school you were attending, but that does not occur at every school. I know Natives who have been put on long waiting lists for classes, and had great difficulty getting into those classes. At UBC, registration is done online and is based on grades and year, NOT race. Those with the highest grade average get to register first among their year, and different years also have priority but I can't remember which.

If you and your sister look so different, how did she register for you? Don't you have pictures on your student cards, and aren't they required to register?

 

[Liz]

Bear in mind that this happened a while ago. Online registration wasn't an option. I wrote my student number on the registration form and she handed it to the administrations clerk. There was nothing sneaky about it. I filled out the form and she dropped it off. The admissions were posted directly while you stood there if there wasn't a long line, and there was room in the class. I guess they assumed she was me. I know many native people as well who have been put on long waiting lists too, but it is likely because there is no room at all left in the class. Not because they specifically have no room for Native people in the class.

 

[gc]

Re: RE: What do we owe to those we've wronged?

Bear in mind that this happened a while ago. Online registration wasn't an option. I wrote my student number on the registration form and she handed it to the administrations clerk. There was nothing sneaky about it. I filled out the form and she dropped it off. The admissions were posted directly while you stood there if there wasn't a long line, and there was room in the class.

Maybe the classes you tried to register for previously were full, whereas the classes you got your sister to register you for were not full? Maybe that's the reason you got into those classes, as opposed to your sister looking like a Native?

I know many native people as well who have been put on long waiting lists too, but it is likely because there is no room at all left in the class. Not because they specifically have no room for Native people in the class.

Exactly. If there is no room in the class, no-one will get in regardless of race. Of course, Natives are not specifically excluded from classes either. My point is that at UBC (can't speak for all schools), there is no preference for race one way or the other when it comes to registering for classes.

 

[blugoo]

RE: What do we owe to tho

What do I owe? Not a thing.

History is the past. I can't change a wrong I never committed. The person who was wronged isn't here to be compensated. All we can do is recognize and acknowledge mistakes in the past, and pledge not to do them in the future.

I'm sure everyone has an ancestor who was wronged somehow. Should we all be compensated?

At what point do we say "look, this thing that happened in Canadian history is horrible. It should have never taken place, and looking back, we regret it deeply"...and move on as a country?

Focusing on past failures instead of future hope and opportunity is not the way I want the country to go in.

 

[tamarin]

Yr right. We do have to focus on the present. We can already see the consequence of addressing past 'wrongs' in Canada. A queue is forming. And ironically it is this queueing of grievances and entitlement that will foment more hard feelings and resentment in the country than having left well enough alone.

 

[Liz]

Re: RE: What do we owe to those we've wronged?

Bear in mind that this happened a while ago. Online registration wasn't an option. I wrote my student number on the registration form and she handed it to the administrations clerk. There was nothing sneaky about it. I filled out the form and she dropped it off. The admissions were posted directly while you stood there if there wasn't a long line, and there was room in the class.

Maybe the classes you tried to register for previously were full, whereas the classes you got your sister to register you for were not full? Maybe that's the reason you got into those classes, as opposed to your sister looking like a Native?

I know many native people as well who have been put on long waiting lists too, but it is likely because there is no room at all left in the class. Not because they specifically have no room for Native people in the class.

Exactly. If there is no room in the class, no-one will get in regardless of race. Of course, Natives are not specifically excluded from classes either. My point is that at UBC (can't speak for all schools), there is no preference for race one way or the other when it comes to registering for classes.

You misunderstand me gc. What I am trying to convey is that people who are not responsible for the wrong doings are the ones that are sacrificing in the name of righting them. The university I attended had a very high Native attendance, and many of the classes had reserved seats if you will. It also had an "Indian federated college". The same registration application (same classes and sections) was handed to two different clerks within minutes. One by a blonde and one by a dark skinned brunette. There was no lineup, and there were no questions asked.

I am guessing you have not applied to many jobs or schools lately, because almost every one I have seen asks specifically if you are a Native Canadian or part of any other minority group. A lot of them give special consideration to those groups. It is all in the name of being "fair".

 

[gc]

Re: RE: What do we owe to those we've wronged?

You misunderstand me gc. What I am trying to convey is that people who are not responsible for the wrong doings are the ones that are sacrificing in the name of righting them. The university I attended had a very high Native attendance, and many of the classes had reserved seats if you will. It also had an "Indian federated college".

Like I said before, I can't not speak for other Universities, just UBC where there are no reserved seats for Natives, and registration is not based on race.

The same registration application (same classes and sections) was handed to two different clerks within minutes. One by a blonde and one by a dark skinned brunette. There was no lineup, and there were no questions asked.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly here, and if I'm not then I apologize... are you saying you handed in two registration forms, one from you and one from your sister on your behalf? If that's the case, why would you have your sister hand one in too? Is it just because you thought you had a better chance of getting in because of her skin colour? Isn't that hypocritical? You accuse the Natives of using their race to have a better chance of registering, and then you do the same thing?

I am guessing you have not applied to many jobs or schools lately, because almost every one I have seen asks specifically if you are a Native Canadian or part of any other minority group. A lot of them give special consideration to those groups. It is all in the name of being "fair".

Not the schools and jobs I have been applying for. I applied for graduate school at UBC, and no-one asked if I was Native or not. And before that, I was pretty much offered a job at a company in Vancouver without ever meeting the person hiring me or asking my race. I turned down the job to go back to school, but I pretty much had the job if I wanted it.

 

[Liz]

Not every job will ask, but many do ask if you are a member of a visible minority (or female even). Maybe UBC does not, but many sure do. I went to university in two different provinces for a total of eight years and was asked at both schools. At the one in question I only handed in one form... the same form twice. The first time when they told me the classes were full, I told them not to bother and took it back. It wasn't hypocritical to use the system the way it was designed. In fact, I was acting on a hunch when I sent my sister in, and lo and behold I was right.
Please don't think that I am criticizing Native people at all. I am not. If the opportunity to use race to get classes is available I think they should use it if they want to be in those classes. It is silly to not be opportunistic. I just think that a solution to racism shouldn't be more racism.

I am glad you could have had that job. Obviously you were the most qualified person they knew. Most employers will hire the most qualified, but if it's a tie, they often give preference to someone who might be overlooked because of racism or sexism somewhere else.