Can't we all just get along?

Retired_Can_Soldier

The End of the Dog is Coming!
Mar 19, 2006
11,366
577
113
59
Alberta
I am not a religious person, in fact I have a problem with organized religion, because it has been my experience that when you get a bunch of folks together and they start talking about the rules, sooner or later someone either ends up oppressed, abused or murdered. Now, I'm not talking about at the lower level where some folks meet in a temple, a church, a mosque or a synagogue to celebrate their faith. Hey man, power to yuh! I have zero problem with that. I do however have a problem in a progressive nation when we start rolling back the rights of citizens and treating them as secondary.

A shining example of that is how the Catholic Church and other sects of Christianity stripped aboriginal children of their culture, physically, mentally and sexually abused them. Essentially committing ethnic cleansing. I know, that was a long time ago. No it wasn't. That happened when I was a kid and the ripple effect caused generational turmoil in which the abusive cycle continued. I am especially disgusted with the Catholic Church who had no problem moving pedophile Priests around like a game of wack a mole, while it's leader heads up one of the richest organizations in the world. A rough estimate puts them somewhere around 120 Billion dollars. Yet, I do not see the much beloved Pope offering reparations for the churches despicable behavior.

There have also been instances when people from the Sikh religion have had uncooperative wives sent back to India to be murdered. There are open investigations in Vancouver. Young woman are put into arranged marriages, set up by their parents which usually involves a financial agreement. The young people involved are not given a choice and there have been times when a young woman who breaks from this culturally embraced behavior has paid with her life.

Of course the hot button today is the Niqab, but moreso the burka which hasn't found it's way into the news spotlight. It seems to me that there are moderate Muslims in Canada who simply want to practice their faith without falling under the accusing eye when some knuckle dragging zealot beheads a bunch of Christians in Iraq or inspires people to kill an unarmed guard in Ottawa The only problem I have with the Niqab, or really, the Burka is what it represents in a Progressive Nation like Canada.

In this Country we like to get up on our high horse about protecting the rights of the individual. Don't believe me? Check out any media stream on the election, CBC being one, and you won't get through a page with out seeing mention of how many woman candidates are running in the federal election, how many minorities, or how many gay folks. We also see regular attacks on individuals who try to invoke religious freedom while stomping on the rights of others. Christian Groups don't want gays to marry. Muslim Flight attendants don't want to serve alcohol and extreme elements in all the major religions want a pass when it comes to discrimination. This, in my humble (not racist) opinion includes extreme views within the Muslim Communities. Personally, I see the garment being opposed by the government as a rag of oppression and its cousin articles like the burka should not be welcome in Canada. While we can argue that it is a woman's choice, the fact is that it flies in the very face of equality. Not only are we a progressive nation, but we are a nation where church and state are supposed to be separate. If we are to give a pass to one group and say it is okay to make your woman dress in this garment, then how do we no say to the Catholics its okay not sell condoms at the drug store or to the Pentecostal who works in city hall that he does not have to issue a marriage license to gay people?


You can't have it both ways folks. Canada is supposed to be based on equality. There was a time when my Mother got batted around by her first husband and a cop told her to mind her husband. She was excommunicated from the Catholic Church even though he beat the crap out of her and eventually tried to kidnap and kill her. In 1981 she was working as a cook on the army base in Chilliwack, BC and making lesser wage than her male counterparts in the same profession. It took a supreme court decision to up my mothers wages, a court that was not bound by religion to get her away from the violent abusive man who oppressed her.
Culture, religion, does not trump equality. I don't care who your God is or how you choose to pray. In fact I support your personal choice to do so, but just because someone questions a practice that it is as outdated as the old testament and oppressive to boot, does not make them a racist. According to our charter we are all supposed to be protected and religion has no place in trumping the individual rights and freedoms of all Canadians.



The argument that it is the woman's choice to wear a niqab or a burka is as short sighted as saying it is the choice of woman to be abused, after all, they can leave any time. Right?


One final thought here. Canada is not perfect, we are still growing as a nation and will make a lot of mistakes in generations to come. I do not believe that moderate Canadian Muslims give a rats *** about the niqab. They are not out to convert us to Islam, but there are people in all major religions who would love to roll back that clock and go back to the days of oppression when they governed. This should not be allowed in a Country which strives to protect the basic human rights of individuals and to ignore regression for fear of being branded racist or for political expediency is about as anti-Canadian as you can get.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
I am not a religious person, in fact I have a problem with organized religion, because it has been my experience that when you get a bunch of folks together and they start talking about the rules, sooner or later someone either ends up oppressed, abused or murdered.

NOPE- There's times in life when a man has to take a stand. At such times the more people who get along just ensures that more people are getting the sh*tty "end of the stick". Ironically I just started a new thread a few minutes ago discussing such an example.
 

personal touch

House Member
Sep 17, 2014
3,023
0
36
alberta/B.C.
I am not a religious person, in fact I have a problem with organized religion, because it has been my experience that when you get a bunch of folks together and they start talking about the rules, sooner or later someone either ends up oppressed, abused or murdered. Now, I'm not talking about at the lower level where some folks meet in a temple, a church, a mosque or a synagogue to celebrate their faith. Hey man, power to yuh! I have zero problem with that. I do however have a problem in a progressive nation when we start rolling back the rights of citizens and treating them as secondary.

A shining example of that is how the Catholic Church and other sects of Christianity stripped aboriginal children of their culture, physically, mentally and sexually abused them. Essentially committing ethnic cleansing. I know, that was a long time ago. No it wasn't. That happened when I was a kid and the ripple effect caused generational turmoil in which the abusive cycle continued. I am especially disgusted with the Catholic Church who had no problem moving pedophile Priests around like a game of wack a mole, while it's leader heads up one of the richest organizations in the world. A rough estimate puts them somewhere around 120 Billion dollars. Yet, I do not see the much beloved Pope offering reparations for the churches despicable behavior.

There have also been instances when people from the Sikh religion have had uncooperative wives sent back to India to be murdered. There are open investigations in Vancouver. Young woman are put into arranged marriages, set up by their parents which usually involves a financial agreement. The young people involved are not given a choice and there have been times when a young woman who breaks from this culturally embraced behavior has paid with her life.

Of course the hot button today is the Niqab, but moreso the burka which hasn't found it's way into the news spotlight. It seems to me that there are moderate Muslims in Canada who simply want to practice their faith without falling under the accusing eye when some knuckle dragging zealot beheads a bunch of Christians in Iraq or inspires people to kill an unarmed guard in Ottawa The only problem I have with the Niqab, or really, the Burka is what it represents in a Progressive Nation like Canada.

In this Country we like to get up on our high horse about protecting the rights of the individual. Don't believe me? Check out any media stream on the election, CBC being one, and you won't get through a page with out seeing mention of how many woman candidates are running in the federal election, how many minorities, or how many gay folks. We also see regular attacks on individuals who try to invoke religious freedom while stomping on the rights of others. Christian Groups don't want gays to marry. Muslim Flight attendants don't want to serve alcohol and extreme elements in all the major religions want a pass when it comes to discrimination. This, in my humble (not racist) opinion includes extreme views within the Muslim Communities. Personally, I see the garment being opposed by the government as a rag of oppression and its cousin articles like the burka should not be welcome in Canada. While we can argue that it is a woman's choice, the fact is that it flies in the very face of equality. Not only are we a progressive nation, but we are a nation where church and state are supposed to be separate. If we are to give a pass to one group and say it is okay to make your woman dress in this garment, then how do we no say to the Catholics its okay not sell condoms at the drug store or to the Pentecostal who works in city hall that he does not have to issue a marriage license to gay people?


You can't have it both ways folks. Canada is supposed to be based on equality. There was a time when my Mother got batted around by her first husband and a cop told her to mind her husband. She was excommunicated from the Catholic Church even though he beat the crap out of her and eventually tried to kidnap and kill her. In 1981 she was working as a cook on the army base in Chilliwack, BC and making lesser wage than her male counterparts in the same profession. It took a supreme court decision to up my mothers wages, a court that was not bound by religion to get her away from the violent abusive man who oppressed her.
Culture, religion, does not trump equality. I don't care who your God is or how you choose to pray. In fact I support your personal choice to do so, but just because someone questions a practice that it is as outdated as the old testament and oppressive to boot, does not make them a racist. According to our charter we are all supposed to be protected and religion has no place in trumping the individual rights and freedoms of all Canadians.



The argument that it is the woman's choice to wear a niqab or a burka is as short sighted as saying it is the choice of woman to be abused, after all, they can leave any time. Right?


One final thought here. Canada is not perfect, we are still growing as a nation and will make a lot of mistakes in generations to come. I do not believe that moderate Canadian Muslims give a rats *** about the niqab. They are not out to convert us to Islam, but there are people in all major religions who would love to roll back that clock and go back to the days of oppression when they governed. This should not be allowed in a Country which strives to protect the basic human rights of individuals and to ignore regression for fear of being branded racist or for political expediency is about as anti-Canadian as you can get.
you should move to the country,you tend to worry too much.
 

Jinentonix

Hall of Fame Member
Sep 6, 2015
10,616
5,256
113
Olympus Mons
Culture, religion, does not trump equality.
I've been beating that horse for years now. Individual rights should not trump the rights granted to society as a whole.
As Ben Franklin once explained, (I believe it was Franklin) "Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. Today this applies to ALL religions, not just the ones that started in the "Brown countries". Business owners who use their religion to refuse service to people should not be permitted to operate a business that's open to the general public.


Same with using culture or religion to oppress women, or anyone else for that matter. Women worked hard to maintain some semblance of equality in North America, although it's still a work in progress. It seems it would ill behoove us to accept the oppression of women under the pathetic guise of cultural or religious tolerance. We have enough of our own domestic problems with female oppression without inviting more.
 

personal touch

House Member
Sep 17, 2014
3,023
0
36
alberta/B.C.
You should try making a bit of sense, it might lessen the constant barrage of questions like: WHAT THE FOOK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT DICKSMACK?
oh my,close your eyes and imagine yourself in the country,brook babbling beside you,the smells,now take a deep breath and fill your thoughts with good feelings.
dicksmack?what does that mean?

quit reading my blogs as truth,just quit reading my blogs,it bothers you so please ignore them.
 

Ludlow

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 7, 2014
13,588
0
36
wherever i sit down my ars
I am not a religious person, in fact I have a problem with organized religion, because it has been my experience that when you get a bunch of folks together and they start talking about the rules, sooner or later someone either ends up oppressed, abused or murdered. Now, I'm not talking about at the lower level where some folks meet in a temple, a church, a mosque or a synagogue to celebrate their faith. Hey man, power to yuh! I have zero problem with that. I do however have a problem in a progressive nation when we start rolling back the rights of citizens and treating them as secondary.

A shining example of that is how the Catholic Church and other sects of Christianity stripped aboriginal children of their culture, physically, mentally and sexually abused them. Essentially committing ethnic cleansing. I know, that was a long time ago. No it wasn't. That happened when I was a kid and the ripple effect caused generational turmoil in which the abusive cycle continued. I am especially disgusted with the Catholic Church who had no problem moving pedophile Priests around like a game of wack a mole, while it's leader heads up one of the richest organizations in the world. A rough estimate puts them somewhere around 120 Billion dollars. Yet, I do not see the much beloved Pope offering reparations for the churches despicable behavior.

There have also been instances when people from the Sikh religion have had uncooperative wives sent back to India to be murdered. There are open investigations in Vancouver. Young woman are put into arranged marriages, set up by their parents which usually involves a financial agreement. The young people involved are not given a choice and there have been times when a young woman who breaks from this culturally embraced behavior has paid with her life.

Of course the hot button today is the Niqab, but moreso the burka which hasn't found it's way into the news spotlight. It seems to me that there are moderate Muslims in Canada who simply want to practice their faith without falling under the accusing eye when some knuckle dragging zealot beheads a bunch of Christians in Iraq or inspires people to kill an unarmed guard in Ottawa The only problem I have with the Niqab, or really, the Burka is what it represents in a Progressive Nation like Canada.

In this Country we like to get up on our high horse about protecting the rights of the individual. Don't believe me? Check out any media stream on the election, CBC being one, and you won't get through a page with out seeing mention of how many woman candidates are running in the federal election, how many minorities, or how many gay folks. We also see regular attacks on individuals who try to invoke religious freedom while stomping on the rights of others. Christian Groups don't want gays to marry. Muslim Flight attendants don't want to serve alcohol and extreme elements in all the major religions want a pass when it comes to discrimination. This, in my humble (not racist) opinion includes extreme views within the Muslim Communities. Personally, I see the garment being opposed by the government as a rag of oppression and its cousin articles like the burka should not be welcome in Canada. While we can argue that it is a woman's choice, the fact is that it flies in the very face of equality. Not only are we a progressive nation, but we are a nation where church and state are supposed to be separate. If we are to give a pass to one group and say it is okay to make your woman dress in this garment, then how do we no say to the Catholics its okay not sell condoms at the drug store or to the Pentecostal who works in city hall that he does not have to issue a marriage license to gay people?


You can't have it both ways folks. Canada is supposed to be based on equality. There was a time when my Mother got batted around by her first husband and a cop told her to mind her husband. She was excommunicated from the Catholic Church even though he beat the crap out of her and eventually tried to kidnap and kill her. In 1981 she was working as a cook on the army base in Chilliwack, BC and making lesser wage than her male counterparts in the same profession. It took a supreme court decision to up my mothers wages, a court that was not bound by religion to get her away from the violent abusive man who oppressed her.
Culture, religion, does not trump equality. I don't care who your God is or how you choose to pray. In fact I support your personal choice to do so, but just because someone questions a practice that it is as outdated as the old testament and oppressive to boot, does not make them a racist. According to our charter we are all supposed to be protected and religion has no place in trumping the individual rights and freedoms of all Canadians.



The argument that it is the woman's choice to wear a niqab or a burka is as short sighted as saying it is the choice of woman to be abused, after all, they can leave any time. Right?


One final thought here. Canada is not perfect, we are still growing as a nation and will make a lot of mistakes in generations to come. I do not believe that moderate Canadian Muslims give a rats *** about the niqab. They are not out to convert us to Islam, but there are people in all major religions who would love to roll back that clock and go back to the days of oppression when they governed. This should not be allowed in a Country which strives to protect the basic human rights of individuals and to ignore regression for fear of being branded racist or for political expediency is about as anti-Canadian as you can get.
I usually don't read long posts. I read this one. Whether I agree with it all or not doesn't matter. Well said.
 

Serryah

Executive Branch Member
Dec 3, 2008
8,981
2,075
113
New Brunswick
To be honest I agree with everything you said RCS; in a nutshell, this is a damn good explanation of why people oppose the niqab and burka.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
295
83
I am not a religious person, in fact I have a problem with organized religion, because it has been my experience that when you get a bunch of folks together and they start talking about the rules, sooner or later someone either ends up oppressed, abused or murdered. Now, I'm not talking about at the lower level where some folks meet in a temple, a church, a mosque or a synagogue to celebrate their faith. Hey man, power to yuh! I have zero problem with that. I do however have a problem in a progressive nation when we start rolling back the rights of citizens and treating them as secondary.

A shining example of that is how the Catholic Church and other sects of Christianity stripped aboriginal children of their culture, physically, mentally and sexually abused them. Essentially committing ethnic cleansing. I know, that was a long time ago. No it wasn't. That happened when I was a kid and the ripple effect caused generational turmoil in which the abusive cycle continued. I am especially disgusted with the Catholic Church who had no problem moving pedophile Priests around like a game of wack a mole, while it's leader heads up one of the richest organizations in the world. A rough estimate puts them somewhere around 120 Billion dollars. Yet, I do not see the much beloved Pope offering reparations for the churches despicable behavior. .......

and on and on and on ad naseum..


The government of Canada gave the mandate to the residential Schools. The government made the decision for assimilation. You want to point fingers, then make sure you point at all the parties and in all the right directions. If that's too much work for you, then don't point fingers period.


and yes, I can see you are upset with the amount of assets the Catholic Church has. Considering that you admit that you are not Catholic, all I can take from the mention of money is that you are jealous, for some unknown reason, of the money the Church has since it does not effect you in the least.

I've been beating that horse for years now. Individual rights should not trump the rights granted to society as a whole.
As Ben Franklin once explained, (I believe it was Franklin) "Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. Today this applies to ALL religions, not just the ones that started in the "Brown countries". Business owners who use their religion to refuse service to people should not be permitted to operate a business that's open to the general public.


So, if you own a business then you lose the right to express your personal beliefs and you lose the right to refuse service. Interesting. Are there any other groups of people that you would like to see rights taken away from?
 

Serryah

Executive Branch Member
Dec 3, 2008
8,981
2,075
113
New Brunswick
[QUOTE =gerryh;2176552]
So, if you own a business then you lose the right to express your personal beliefs and you lose the right to refuse service. Interesting . Are there any other groups of people that you would like to see rights taken away from?[ QUOTE ]

If your business is a public one then yes, you do. Keep your personal beliefs to yourself when you serve the public. Want to express those beliefs, make your business private. Then you can be an azzhole and refuse service to whomever you wish.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
295
83
If your business is a public one then yes, you do. Keep your personal beliefs to yourself when you serve the public. Want to express those beliefs, make your business private. Then you can be an azzhole and refuse service to whomever you wish..


Define public and private.



As far as I'm concerned, one can decide who they do and do not "service" with their business. If people don't like what they are doing, they can vote with their pocket book and not spend their money there.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
Define public and private.



As far as I'm concerned, one can decide who they do and do not "service" with their business. If people don't like what they are doing, they can vote with their pocket book and not spend their money there.

I agree with that 90%. There's the odd rare exception. Like if there's only one grocery store within 50 miles and a family consisting of a widow and six kids, it would be a real A$$hole who would deny her service.

no shirt, no shoes, no service

And for a good reason, it protects the proprietor from a lawsuit should the person step on a sliver or in some dog sh*t.

I've been beating that horse for years now. Individual rights should not trump the rights granted to society as a whole.
As Ben Franklin once explained, (I believe it was Franklin) "Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. Today this applies to ALL religions, not just the ones that started in the "Brown countries". Business owners who use their religion to refuse service to people should not be permitted to operate a business that's open to the general public.


Same with using culture or religion to oppress women, or anyone else for that matter. Women worked hard to maintain some semblance of equality in North America, although it's still a work in progress. It seems it would ill behoove us to accept the oppression of women under the pathetic guise of cultural or religious tolerance. We have enough of our own domestic problems with female oppression without inviting more.

I absolutely agree with "Freedom of Religion" so long as it's not used to harm others and most importantly it doesn't give one the right to jam it down other people's throats.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
44,850
192
63
Nakusp, BC
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
[QUOTE =gerryh;2176552]
So, if you own a business then you lose the right to express your personal beliefs and you lose the right to refuse service. Interesting . Are there any other groups of people that you would like to see rights taken away from?[ QUOTE ]

If your business is a public one then yes, you do. Keep your personal beliefs to yourself when you serve the public. Want to express those beliefs, make your business private. Then you can be an azzhole and refuse service to whomever you wish.

I agree to a point, up to where someone's behaviour is bothering other customers and jeopardizes their patronage with you.