High Cost of Travel on BC Ferries

VanIsle
#1
Blame the high cost of travelling to the Gulf Islands on the Islands Trust, not B.C. Ferries, a corporation official says.
Islands Trust land-use policies are creating a scarcity of developable land, driving real estate prices up, pushing out young people and replacing them with retirees who travel less, said Rob Clarke, chief financial officer for B.C. Ferries.
Clarke delivered that message to a recent meeting of the Gabriola Ferry Advisory Committee.
Gulf Islanders have accused the ferry corporation of hurting island economies by imposing high fares. Those fares have in turn pushed down ridership and made doing business on the islands more expensive, they say. Fares on some Gulf Islands routes have doubled in the past five years, with the corporation saying the increases are necessary to cover costs.
"I think if you go up and down the entire Gulf Islands archipelago, the chances of you finding subsidized housing, co-op housing, multi-family dwellings, the kinds of housing that would attract young people starting out is virtually nonexistent, and that's the issue," Clarke said in an interview.
The notion that rising ferry fares are damaging Gulf Island economies can't be backed up, he said, citing a 444 per cent rise in lot prices on Gabriola between 2001 and 2008.
He said if fares harm local economies, housing prices "should be falling, not rising, and yet it's rising."
Clarke had Vancouver-based consulting firm Urban Futures study Gulf Islands demographics, using census data. The study found a disproportionate number of people between the ages of 50 and 75 on Gabriola compared with the provincial average, and fewer under age 50.
Clarke blames Islands Trust policies that discourage growth, families and commuters. More families and commuters would increase ridership and help to keep fares down.
"Islands Trust has a preserve-and-protect mandate, which means they're trying to keep the nature of the islands a very static place, and if you want to have young people moving in, you have to be providing affordable housing," Clarke said.
"People can't afford to have $1-million properties when they're just starting out. In fact, many can't afford to buy them at any time, and so I suggested that the Islands Trust policies may in fact be a larger contributor to this phenomenon than fares."
Andre Lemieux, Gabriola Ferry Advisory Committee chairman, said he has witnessed property values rise dramatically, changing the community. "All of a sudden people with a lot of money are buying homes and displacing young families with kids," said Lemieux. "The result of that, it reduces traffic on ferries and use of elementary schools."
Gabriola elementary school enrolment fell 33 per cent over the past decade, compared to 23 per cent in the Nanaimo-Ladysmith school district.
Sheila Malcolmson, Islands Trust trustee for Gabriola Island, challenges B.C. Ferries' assessment, noting that within the census data, some under-50 age groups actually rose during the study period. "We have not said no to any development applications that have come before us in the seven years that I've been a trustee," Malcolmson said.
"I think if B.C. Ferries doesn't take responsibility for looking at elasticity between the price you pay for the product and demand for their product, I think they're missing a seriously important part of the equation. And I wish B.C. Ferries would convey to us directly their concerns."
 
VanIsle
#2
Long pasted article but no none would know what I was talking about if it wasn't there. You have to live on this Island or at the very least, the lower mainland of BC to understand. Ridership on BC Ferries is down. They have cut the number of ferries rather drastically all over the Island but especially between the big Island and the Mainland. I work with a lot of young people. Like the rest of us, they don't leave the Island because it's too costly to go more than you absolutely have to. David Hahn needs to go home and they need a CEO that doesn't cost so much. Ferries have gotten more and more expensive since he took over the reins. They need to work on the volume of riders - not raising the costs. A full ferry means they sell more items and naturally have more riders. Young people are leaving the island because it's too expensive to go back and forth.
 
AnnaG
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#3
The high costs of ferry rides sure have worked towards keeping us off the island. It's sad. Van. Island is so pretty and pleasant to visit.
 
Ron in Regina
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#4
Do the BC Ferries make a profit, or claim a loss every year? Are they
operating on a break-even prospect?
 
AnnaG
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#5
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in ReginaView Post

Do the BC Ferries make a profit, or claim a loss every year? Are they
operating on a break-even prospect?

Profit. --
--
 
lone wolf
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#6
That's what happens when they privatize. You ought to see what they've done with Ontario Hydro....
 
AnnaG
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#7
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolfView Post

That's what happens when they privatize. You ought to see what they've done with Ontario Hydro....

Yeah, some things just shouldn't be privatized. Dad says old Wacky Bennett was a genius at figuring out what to keep public and what not to.
 
taxslave
Avatar
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolfView Post

That's what happens when they privatize. You ought to see what they've done with Ontario Hydro....

B.C> ferries is not privatized. It is now a company but the B.C. government is the sole share holder. There is good reason for upping the fares, most of which is to protect taxpayers. Since I was young there has been an active movment to prevent any meaningfull job creation on any of the islands. Most don't have enough water for large scale development anyway. From the sixties on it was a low rent place with no jobs so the hippies loved them. Then in about the 90s rich retirees and even the not so rich found they are a nice place to live, forcing up house prices and taxes. This at least forced some of the freeloaders out. All the while the rest of B.C. taxpayers have been subsidizing their cheap transport as well as financing tourist traffic. The mainland -VI routes break even but the small islands cost all of us money and I doubt that a taxpayer in say Prince George is too happy about financing rich retirees life styles.
 
L Gilbert
Avatar
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

B.C> ferries is not privatized. It is now a company but the B.C. government is the sole share holder. There is good reason for upping the fares, most of which is to protect taxpayers. ........ The mainland -VI routes break even but the small islands cost all of us money and I doubt that a taxpayer in say Prince George is too happy about financing rich retirees life styles.

Not too happy about it here, either. But we won't be supporting it any more than we have to. Privatized or not, we simply won't use the gov't's ferries because the cost of using them is prohibitive.
 
VanIsle
#10
BC Ferries CEO David Hahn clearly believes he is entitled to his outragous salary (him and others who work under him and are clearly over-paid as well). This is the latest report on his salary:
Bond called Hahn’s deal “shocking.”
“That’s a very large number,” said Bond. “I think it is shocking for people to hear that the CEO of B.C. Ferries makes that salary.”
The situation was more than shocking for MLA Gary Coons [North Coast], NDP ferry critic.
“I think it’s outrageous as we see ferry fares skyrocketing, we’re seeing service levels cut, we’re seeing the sustainability of ferry-dependent communities [threatened] with loss of tourism and businesses going bust,” said Coons.
The report pegged Hahn’s salary, bonuses and benefits at a total of $1,034,680 for the fiscal year ending March 31.
Executive vice-presidents Michael Corrigan, Glen Schwartz, Robert Clarke and Capt. Trafford Taylor had compensation packages for the same period that ranged from $485,509 to $561,747.
None of that information had surfaced previously and Coons called for a return to more accountability for B.C. Ferries, which is a private company that he said has one shareholder — Finance Minister Colin Hansen, representing the taxpayers who fund the ferries to the tune of $170 million annually.
But there’s unlikely to be changes to B.C. Ferries’ quasi-private company status.

I believe there has to be changes. The greed of management of BC Ferries is literally running the service to the bottom of the sea. Tourism is down here amongst many other things. Groceries are up. Many people want to see a bridge built but there needs to be a bigger fight for it. Right now, the general belief is that building a bridge will bring too many mainlanders to the Island and it's true. However, what's the point in living here if goods and services are too expensive?
 
lone wolf
#11
If one wants exclusivity, one pays for it
 
JLM
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

B.C> ferries is not privatized. It is now a company but the B.C. government is the sole share holder. There is good reason for upping the fares, most of which is to protect taxpayers. Since I was young there has been an active movment to prevent any meaningfull job creation on any of the islands. Most don't have enough water for large scale development anyway. From the sixties on it was a low rent place with no jobs so the hippies loved them. Then in about the 90s rich retirees and even the not so rich found they are a nice place to live, forcing up house prices and taxes. This at least forced some of the freeloaders out. All the while the rest of B.C. taxpayers have been subsidizing their cheap transport as well as financing tourist traffic. The mainland -VI routes break even but the small islands cost all of us money and I doubt that a taxpayer in say Prince George is too happy about financing rich retirees life styles.


I think the bottom line has to be user pays.
 
#juan
Avatar
#13
Quote:

Islands Trust land-use policies are creating a scarcity of developable land, driving real estate prices up, pushing out young people and replacing them with retirees who travel less, said Rob Clarke, chief financial officer for B.C. Ferries.

Young people would come to the islands if there were any jobs. The government has to encourage secondary industry. We all can't make a living chopping down trees and making lumber. I'm retired but I've seen whole industries disappear. Richmond and Delta used to grow vegetables and can them. That farmland was eaten up to provide housing for people working in Vancouver. Has anyone heard of Vancouver Gear Works in Richmond? These people can cut a gear twenty five feet accross. They are among the biggest in the industry and nobody knows about them.
 
Beekeeper
#14
If user pays is to be the criteria then it is logical that we toll every highway and every bridge and in fact it is technicaly possible to toll every street. If we were to do that then there would be no need for any taxes. Then old sailors like me could sit home, drink our beer, waste our endless time on stupid discussion boards and laugh at the world.
 
JLM
Avatar
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by BeekeeperView Post

If user pays is to be the criteria then it is logical that we toll every highway and every bridge and in fact it is technicaly possible to toll every street. If we were to do that then there would be no need for any taxes. Then old sailors like me could sit home, drink our beer, waste our endless time on stupid discussion boards and laugh at the world.

From what you say I gather that you don't think the users of highways and bridges are paying now. Could you please enlighten me as to who is paying?
 
Beekeeper
#16
Of course the users of highways pay and so do those who dont use them. I didnt say that user pay would be the best system. That was sugested by a previous poster. I recall that WAC treated the ferries as part of the hwy system. In fact he built B.C. Ferries when B.C. was being ill served by the CPR.
 
VanIsle
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

From what you say I gather that you don't think the users of highways and bridges are paying now. Could you please enlighten me as to who is paying?

JLM, you get into your vehicle and drive to anyplace you want without extra cost. We pay what you pay plus the cost of the ferry - our liquid highway. It isn't hard to figure out that if the cost of the ferry ride is reduced, ridership will increase dramatically and all will be well again in regard to the ferries. All we need are the baboons out of the way.
 
JLM
Avatar
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by VanIsleView Post

JLM, you get into your vehicle and drive to anyplace you want without extra cost. We pay what you pay plus the cost of the ferry - our liquid highway. It isn't hard to figure out that if the cost of the ferry ride is reduced, ridership will increase dramatically and all will be well again in regard to the ferries. All we need are the baboons out of the way.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. You are only paying the price of the ferry when you are in fact using the ferry. I never use the ferry. Do you think I should be paying for it? Every morning on C.B.C. radio they give the figure for the major runs to Victoria and Nanaimo and those runs at are already generally 75% booked at 5:30 A.M. , so how is this increased ridership going to get on. People don't ride ferries because the price is cheap, they ride it because they have to get somewhere. I do agree with one thing though, David Hahn should be shipped back to the U.S. $400,000 annual salary is ridiculous. (I'll bet there's lots of qualified CAnadians who would do it for $300,000.............................:lo l:)
 
talloola
Avatar
#19
How would b.c. ferries survive if only those who use it, pay
for it, that is the way it is with most things. I pay school
taxes, but have no school children, and there would be a list
a mile long of other things we all pay for.
I live on vancouver island, but hardly ever ride the ferries,
but I sure don't ever want to see a bridge, that would make us
just part of the mainland, and most islanders would not want
that.
Our island is very special, lets keep it that way, but joined
to the mainland would take all of that away, nothing special any
more, gridlock traffic back and forth, crowded highways up and
down the island, just a continuation of the same ole same ole
we lived with when we were there, living in surrey, it was
crowded then, but now it is awful, I wouldn't live there again
ever, I would rather live here, in a tent.
 
VanIsle
#20
That's just the thing though. It's not "our island". Anyone who wants to live here can live here. I don't have a problem paying a "toll" if you will but the price we pay to live here and to leave here is ridiculous. Thank goodness our airport is expanding because it probably won't be that much more expensive to just take a flight and be on the mainland in 15 min. rather than 2 hours or 1.5 depending on the point of Departure. It's even worse for you Talloola because you have to drive to my city before you even get to the ferry. Taxslave and Kreskin as well. At least Juan and my self just have a ferry terminal to go to. I heard a man say oneday that he wondered why so many people on this Island owned travel trailers but never left the Island. Obviously he never paid to take a truck and a trailer to the mainland. For those who don't know - the cost is by the length of the vehicle when you are pulling a trailer or something similar like driving a semi.
 
talloola
Avatar
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by VanIsleView Post

That's just the thing though. It's not "our island". Anyone who wants to live here can live here. I don't have a problem paying a "toll" if you will but the price we pay to live here and to leave here is ridiculous. Thank goodness our airport is expanding because it probably won't be that much more expensive to just take a flight and be on the mainland in 15 min. rather than 2 hours or 1.5 depending on the point of Departure. It's even worse for you Talloola because you have to drive to my city before you even get to the ferry. Taxslave and Kreskin as well. At least Juan and my self just have a ferry terminal to go to. I heard a man say oneday that he wondered why so many people on this Island owned travel trailers but never left the Island. Obviously he never paid to take a truck and a trailer to the mainland. For those who don't know - the cost is by the length of the vehicle when you are pulling a trailer or something similar like driving a semi.

That is a personal feeling of many islanders, 'our island', it is special, and I
don't have any problem getting to and from the ferry, I hardly ever take it, I
live here, do almost everything here, I have no need to go back and forth, so
I don't even think about it.
If a bridge was built, the trucks would be charged a high toll to cross as well.
Anyway I don't have to worry about it, by the time anyone decides to build a
bridge, I will be long gone, I plan to be around here for another 30 years, and
I'm sure the ferries will still be crossing then.
The expression 'our island' isn't a feeling of ownership, it is a feeling of love
for the island, we moved here 30 years ago from the mainland, where we both were
born and raised, and the move to the island was the best decision we have ever
made, and if there had been a bridge at that time, I'm sure we would have thought
otherwise, probably would have gone north to some smaller city, because the island
would not have had the interest for us, because it probably would have been much
more populated and crowded, just like the mainland, because a bridge will do that.
There used to be lots of work on the island for loggers and mill workers, but the
government brought that to an end by allowing raw logs to be sold south to the
u.s., gradually brought the industry to it's knees, now it is almost gone, there
was no thought for any of the workers here on the island, or anywhere else in b.c.
 
Beekeeper
#22
There is the point JLM, you watch the CBC, I dont yet I pay for it!
 
JLM
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by BeekeeperView Post

There is the point JLM, you watch the CBC, I dont yet I pay for it!

And I don't? And you can't?
 
Beekeeper
#24
You can use the ferries if you want. Maybe a trip to the Island might enlighten you.
 
JLM
Avatar
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by BeekeeperView Post

You can use the ferries if you want. Maybe a trip to the Island might enlighten you.

I doubt it, I lived on Vancouver Island for about 45 years of my life, in just about every major community from Victoria to Sayward, not to mention camps on the west coast and have probably ridden the ferries about 50 times. So now that you know this tell me what it is that I need enlightening about.
 
countryboy
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

I doubt it, I lived on Vancouver Island for about 45 years of my life, in just about every major community from Victoria to Sayward, not to mention camps on the west coast and have probably ridden the ferries about 50 times. So now that you know this tell me what it is that I need enlightening about.

...just goes to show that assumptions are a dangerous thing.
 
JLM
Avatar
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by countryboyView Post

...just goes to show that assumptions are a dangerous thing.


not to mention the fact they can p*ss people off................
 
countryboy
Avatar
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

not to mention the fact they can p*ss people off................

...which seems to occur with some frequency!
Phrasing an assumption in the form of a question helps to prevent "Foot in Mouth disease!"
 
JLM
Avatar
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by countryboyView Post

...which seems to occur with some frequency!
Phrasing an assumption in the form of a question helps to prevent "Foot in Mouth disease!"

Questions are great- if you don't get an answer, you've won the argument.
 
#juan
Avatar
#30
I use the ferries to go to the mainland to visit our children. Usually about twice a month. When I drive off the ferry at Horseshoe Bay and head up the Upper Levels, it doesn't take long to remember why I live on Vancouver Island. Usually it's some moron who gives me the finger because he wants me to go faster than the traffic I'm following. I guess the guy thinks if I'm not tailgating, I'm not trying hard enough. I now remember living in Vancouver when I used to arrive at my office already fed up before I'd done a lick of work. On the island we also have our share of dolts but nowhere near the lower mainland numbers.
 

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